IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Anything that doesn't fit elsewhere - doesn't have to be AD related.
WhoseGeneration
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby WhoseGeneration » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:17 pm

waremark wrote:Safer and more enjoyable driving - but difficult going on impossible to prove, and not a perceived need by most.


Yet needed by most, frustrates me, for just proper observation and that 2 second rule (for pedants, to be extended in poor conditions) obeyed by all, would lead to fewer collisions.

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jont-
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby jont- » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:40 am

WhoseGeneration wrote:
waremark wrote:Safer and more enjoyable driving - but difficult going on impossible to prove, and not a perceived need by most.


Yet needed by most, frustrates me, for just proper observation and that 2 second rule (for pedants, to be extended in poor conditions) obeyed by all, would lead to fewer collisions.

And improved lane discipline would increase the capacity of our major routes, particularly dual carriageways.

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Horse
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby Horse » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:25 am

Are obs, 2s rule and lane discipline not covered in L training?
My own views. For better or worse :)

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jont-
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby jont- » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:37 am

Horse wrote:Are obs, 2s rule and lane discipline not covered in L training?

What fraction of drivers do you think would pass an L test if they retook it today? :roll:

xpc316e
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby xpc316e » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:40 am

jont- wrote:
Horse wrote:Are obs, 2s rule and lane discipline not covered in L training?

What fraction of drivers do you think would pass an L test if they retook it today? :roll:


I feel that this frequently asked question misses the point entirely. Few experienced drivers would pass the DSA test without coaching, but that does not mean that they are poor drivers. Good driving must ultimately be about how one manages risk, and those who are recently successful in the DSA test have a very poor crash record in the months following their tests. Learning is for the most part about learning to pass the test, not learning to drive. The two things are entirely separate and most people only go on to learn a small part of driving after passing their tests.

You can tell people all about advanced driving, but for most people the thing that opens their eyes to their lack of ability is sitting beside an excellent driver who gives them a commentary. You can even watch videos of commentary drives all day without getting a true impression of the thought processes and visual skills of the driver. A local advanced group near me used to pile people into a minibus at events and take them for a drive, and I always thought it a really sound idea.

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akirk
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby akirk » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:55 am

xpc316e wrote:You can tell people all about advanced driving, but for most people the thing that opens their eyes to their lack of ability is sitting beside an excellent driver who gives them a commentary.


Agreed.

The reality is that few people think they are bad drivers. The tendency is to assume that someone else is always the problem (seen a lot in videos on Youtube slating another driver and ignoring / unaware that the person posting could have prevented the issue...). There is no desire to take responsibility for their own actions. So why would anyone be interested in advanced driving - 'not needed here'.

There has to either be a stick or carrot - as this thread suggests, many see it in the category of stick alongside having to do a speeding course... Where is the carrot? What is the incentive, or excitement in doing advanced driving...? If you talk about people being better drivers they assume you mean handling skills / track driving... there is a clear lack of understanding of the relevance of AD

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Horse
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby Horse » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:52 am

xpc316e wrote:
jont- wrote:
Horse wrote:Are obs, 2s rule and lane discipline not covered in L training?

What fraction of drivers do you think would pass an L test if they retook it today? :roll:


I feel that this frequently asked question misses the point entirely.


I feel this frequently-given answer misses the point :)

xpc316e wrote: Few experienced drivers would pass the DSA test without coaching, but that does not mean that they are poor drivers.


The point of my post is in relation to any real, perceived or claimed benefits from 'advanced' driving. Those given, which I quoted, are covered in learner-level training - so why would 'advanced' training in those aspects achieve any long-lasting benefit?

xpc316e wrote: Good driving must ultimately be about how one manages risk, and those who are recently successful in the DSA test have a very poor crash record in the months following their tests. Learning is for the most part about learning to pass the test, not learning to drive. The two things are entirely separate and most people only go on to learn a small part of driving after passing their tests.


Really? If 2s rule, obs (HPT) and lane discipline are anything to go by, drivers go on to deteriorate after passing the test!

DId you this about the introduction of the Hazard Perception Test . . . Research has shown that hazard perception training and testing could account for an 11% reduction in collisions ?

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... w-drivers/

The video hazard perception test, which has been implemented in GB since 2002, was shown in the COHORT II study of learner and novice drivers to be associated with a fall in novice driver collisions. Since its implementation, the test is estimated to have prevented collisions valued at close to £1billion (using DfT monetary figures for lost economic output, human and medical costs associated with road casualties, and the police, insurance and damage costs associated with accidents).

http://www.trl.co.uk/news-hub/trl-press ... d-for-trl/

xpc316e wrote: . . . but for most people the thing that opens their eyes to their lack of ability is sitting beside an excellent driver who gives them a commentary. You can even watch videos of commentary drives all day without getting a true impression of the thought processes and visual skills of the driver.


Is a commentary an 'advanced' technique? Nope.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=383
My own views. For better or worse :)

Astraist
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby Astraist » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:46 pm

akirk wrote:
Agreed.

The reality is that few people think they are bad drivers. The tendency is to assume that someone else is always the problem.[...]There has to either be a stick or carrot[...] Where is the carrot?[...]If you talk about people being better drivers they assume you mean handling skills / track driving... there is a clear lack of understanding of the relevance of AD.


True. Not only are people sure of their own ability to drive, but most people would be offended to a surprisingly great degree by criticism leveled towards their driving. It is, to most people, an element in their identity ("I am a good driver") rather than just a skill ("I can drive well").

As for becoming better drivers - the skill-sets for Motorsport and road driving have more in common than one might think. Nevertheless, the main problem I see with this fixation is that it leads to focus on car control, cornering limit points etc rather than driving defensively in TRAFFIC which is what would prevent the greater part of road collisions.

Happy Yom Kippur.

Gareth
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby Gareth » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:45 am

akirk wrote:If you talk about people being better drivers ...

I think a staged conversation ought to be more fruitful.
  1. What examples of bad driving have you seen?
  2. Is good driving merely the absence of bad driving?
  3. What, then, might good driving look like?
  4. Based on that, are there any areas of your own driving that could be improved?
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

Rolyan
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Re: IAM RoADAR is a punishment

Postby Rolyan » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:02 pm

The majority of drivers that I know have not had a RTC, certainly nothing significant and not recently. Many drive for decades without a collision of any kind, minor or otherwise.

Of those that have been involved in a RTC, the overwhelming majority say that it was the other person's fault.

So why on earth would they see any perceived benefit in advanced driving as it's often promoted. Very very few of them want to explore car controls and handling the way that we nerds do. Lets be honest here; when I decided to do AD it wasn't because I thought that I was unsafe; I seriously doubt if anyone on here would truthfully claim that. Astraist is absolutely spot on; the things we find enjoyable in our little self aggrandising AD world are not relevant to most people, and those people know it. Anal discussions about steering and gear grip and rev matching don't really help.

There have been claims that the IAM hierachy have been dumbing down the requirements. There is also concern about their formal support of BRAKE and how they give them credibility. While some of us may not like that, it certainly will appeal to some drivers, who just want to get to work safely and think that slower = faster.

If AD as its currently delivered genuinely gave real benefits to the majority of drivers, then there would be no single AD families. When one did it, the other would. Once the husband had gained the AD qualification, the wife could then see the benefits of AD to supermarket shopping, driving to the WI and going for makeup and pretty shoes. But they dont. Because to them there isn't any, as its promoted at present.

The senior exec. team of the IAM have got many things wrong, but perhaps dumbing things down, and changing the name away from the grandiose Institute of Advanced Motoring, will prove to be a start in getting more normal drivers a bit more safer in their own environment. As long as we've still got forums like this for us to talk about slip angles, its a win-win.


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