Requirements for paid driving work

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Smeeagain
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:52 pm

Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby Smeeagain » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:45 am

hir wrote:
Horse wrote:
akirk wrote:I presume that a company's employee driving a customer doesn't come under private hire, it may depend on how you structure the relationship with the restaurants...
Alasdair


Years ago, landlord of a local bought a minibus to take 'tired' customers home. Service ended abruptly when he was told he needed additional licencing beyond a publican's.


Horse is right...

OP you must get some official advice, don't rely on anything said on here. Get confirmation of what you believe, or are told on here, from the authorities who will prosecute you and invalidate your insurance if you get it wrong! :o :o :o

Yes, this is a complete nightmare to get one's head around. You need to talk to the service provider, the local authority, the DVLA, etc, etc etc. For example, when the D1 driving licence conditions refer to "hire or reward" they're not referring to a reward for the driver, ie. payment to reward the driver for his services. They're referring to payment by the passengers to the bus owner, who may, or may not, be the driver. It's the payment by the passengers to the bus operator that causes the problem for the driver. Unless, of course, the bus owner is operating under Section 19 or Section 22 of the Transport Act 1985 where organisations that provide transport on a ‘not-for-profit’ basis can apply for permits under those sections. These permits allow the holder to operate transport services for hire or reward without the need for a full public service vehicle (PSV) operator’s licence... and the driver can drive the bus on a D1 licence rather than a PSV licence... As I said before it's a legal, licensing and insurance nightmare. Be absolutely certain that what you are doing is permissible by the authorities... don't take any notice of the hotelier who says... " It's OK, everyone does it round here. We've been doing it for years without any problems. You might just end up being the first "problem" and you can bet the hotelier won't be anywhere to be seen. :oops:

D1 grandfather rights apply only to licences issued prior to 1 January 1997. When a D1 licence is renewed at age 70 the licence holder must apply to the DVLA in writing, with both eyesight and medical examination reports. D1 licences cannot be renewed online at age 70.


Thanks. Yes there have been suggestions that "I'll be fine", but im a beltnbraces kind of guy and I take insurance, my liberty, and ultimately others lives very seriously. This was merely the starting point ..

hir
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby hir » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:25 am

Smeeagain wrote:
Thanks. Yes there have been suggestions that "I'll be fine", but im a beltnbraces kind of guy and I take insurance, my liberty, and ultimately others lives very seriously...



Excellent. In which case I shall stop worrying for you. ;)

mainbeam
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:32 am

Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby mainbeam » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:27 am

Smeeagain wrote:Im looking to move to the Inner Hebrides. I will be undertaking tourism related work across a number of areas (b&b etc). There is an option to do some paid driving work and also unpaid/voluntary driving (community minibus).
My question is, do I need any special licence/certificates for the following (appreciate I'll need to discuss with insurer.
My driving licence was issued in January so I belive I have some 'grandfather' right.

1) Unpaid minibus driving (15 seater I belive) - no special requirements ?

2) Paid driving work (tours/taxi-ing) in domestic car up to 9 seater ie me as driver and 8 passengers - no special licence requirements? Some kinf of special commercial MOT

3) paid minibus 15 seater driving - PCV licence? Soecial MOT?

Any help is much appreciated!!!


Minibus Driving. 8-16 passengers.

If you passed your car test prior to January 1997 you have restricted D1 (minibus) entitlement ('not for hire or reward'). This gives you more entitlement than those who passed since then and drive minibuses on their car licence entitlement only.

a) the 3500kg weight restriction does not apply - of course normal vehicle weight restrictions still apply.

b) you can drive a minibus that is operated 'for hire or reward' by not-for-profit organisations using Section 19 and 22 permits. The 'community minibus operates under a Section 22 permit. You need to ensure that a valid permit is in place and displayed in the vehicle when driving. You can be paid to drive a vehicle operating under these permits.

'Hire and reward' means that payment is made in money or in kind in respect of the journey undertaken by the passenger. It can be paid by the passenger, on behalf of the passenger or as part of a payment for some other service provided to the passenger and includes any payment made to the driver other than out of pocket expenses.

Outside of the permit scheme if any money is changing hands in respect of the transport directly or indirectly then the driver will most likely need unrestricted D1 entitlement.

Car driving 1-8 passengers.

Christopherwk, in my view, offers good advice on this however a requirement for a PH licence is not dependant on whether or not payment is made separately. That is a factor that is taken into account but it is not conclusive. If you explain what you are doing to the LA the LA will inform you whether or not you need to be licensed or not.

Generally

How the operation is "structured" is unlikely to have a material affect on whether or not the vehicle is ' for hire' or is being driven 'for hire or reward. Unless the link between payment and the right to travel is so remote so as to be insignificant then the relevant licences will be required.

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akirk
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Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby akirk » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:07 am

I suspect that where hotels get away with it is when the service is a complementary service and thus there is no direct charge specifically for the transportation - so the transportation is not being done for reward as the same charge is being made to the punter regardless of whether or not they are picked up from the local station etc...

in this case, if the restaurants offer a service from within the cost of the meal, then there shouldn't be an issue, but as I suspect they would charge separately there is then a connection between payment and service

Alasdair

ratty
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Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby ratty » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:37 pm

akirk wrote:I suspect that where hotels get away with it is when the service is a complementary service and thus there is no direct charge specifically for the transportation - so the transportation is not being done for reward as the same charge is being made to the punter regardless of whether or not they are picked up from the local station etc...

in this case, if the restaurants offer a service from within the cost of the meal, then there shouldn't be an issue, but as I suspect they would charge separately there is then a connection between payment and service

Alasdair



I think that if there is a reasonable expectation that the transport is included in the price of the meal, then it is for H&R.

So if I said, "If you eat here I will arrange transport to .................for you", there is a reasonable expectation that if you pay for the meal transportation is included in the price. I'm sure that this would be held as H&R.

This is the same as what some private (for profit) schools do. Pay this fee for the term which includes transport to different events. You are not paying separately for the transport, but if you don't pay for the term you don't get transported.

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akirk
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Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby akirk » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:25 pm

I can see the logic ref. a meal where there is a 1:1 relationship between meal and transport...

not sure that the school analogy is correct - school minibuses driven by teachers are not seen as being driven for hire & reward...

Alasdair

ratty
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Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby ratty » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:27 pm

That depends on if the school is run for profit.

To say that "school minibuses driven by teachers are not seen as being driven for hire & reward....." is a very sweeping statement!

Some of the schools I do driving assessments for are not able to claim Sect 19 permits because they are run for profit and the teachers are paid to drive the minibuses. These teachers have to take the D1 DVSA driving test because it is accepted that they are driving for hire or reward.

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akirk
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Re: Requirements for paid driving work

Postby akirk » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:49 pm

Okay, fair point, but schools seen as running for profit are quite rare in this country where state schools are not profit making and the majority of private schools are non-profit making charities...

Alasdair


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