Advanced Driving Hub

Gareth wrote:

WhoseGeneration wrote:

Gareth wrote:Certainly I'd go for explaining the difference, but practising an emergency stop without triggering ABS is pretty good practice for executing an emergency stop in a car without ABS.

Rubbish, the point is, if it's fitted use it.
Your approach presumably means that, on a car so equipped, ESP should be turned off for a learner driver?

Please either explain with what you're disagreeing, or re-read what I wrote without a preconceived filter.

fungus said,
"I've never understood this idea that the ABS should not be activated. To threshold brake takes good feel and practice, something most drivers don't have because they haven't developed it. Basically you need to stop the bloody car if someone steps out in front of you. There's no time for the niceties of not activating the ABS."

Now, if you want a learner to emergency brake in an ABS equipped car without activating it, you would be best to pull the ABS fuse, so long as it's only for that. Club motorsport folks do this on their road cars for such as PCTs.

I'd suggest it's worth a learner doing an emergency stop and activating ABS, so they learn how it feels, but I'd suggest that learners should also be able to perform an emergency stop without activating the ABS, since in a non-ABS car that would be the same as losing control. The point is that ABS activates when the driver has already lost control, but provides them with a safety net; it would be better if new drivers understood this.

I wouldn't call activating ABS as loss of control. There's very few who can brake just on the point of lock up. Certainly not without repeated hard stopping on the same piece of tarmac. Like on a track? For the majority of people, in an emergency, braking as hard as possible, activating ABS, is the best option. That's why cars now come with EBA, Emergency Brake Assist (or other names from different manufacturers) to do just that, as they don't.

Gareth wrote:I'd suggest it's worth a learner doing an emergency stop and activating ABS, so they learn how it feels, but I'd suggest that learners should also be able to perform an emergency stop without activating the ABS, since in a non-ABS car that would be the same as losing control. The point is that ABS activates when the driver has already lost control, but provides them with a safety net; it would be better if new drivers understood this.

Oh dear, all this "losing control".
I really can't be bothered to reply now.

Aircraft have been fitted with ABS for far longer than cars.
I can't think of any pilot who would attempt not to use this if needs be.
All these devices are there, to be used, as and when they have to be.
What does need to be done is to educate people to their use.
It's said that it takes about 50 years to really change attitudes so there will be plenty of people out there still driving with a Morris Minor in mind

sussex2 wrote:Aircraft have been fitted with ABS for far longer than cars.
I can't think of any pilot who would attempt not to use this if needs be.
All these devices are there, to be used, as and when they have to be.
What does need to be done is to educate people to their use.
It's said that it takes about 50 years to really change attitudes so there will be plenty of people out there still driving with a Morris Minor in mind

Certainly I was skeptical about the value of such systems - it's only in the last couple of years I've owned a car with anything more advanced than ABS, and only by experimenting on proving grounds and testing facilities I've gained confidence in what they do/how they work. Mrs JonT's new car has AEB - I'd very much like to try that in anger (against some sort of inflateable target) to get an understanding of in what circumstances it works and how it manifests itself.

Mind you, having just spent a few days talking to all sorts of people about where the technology will be in another 5 years time, I'm feeling quite smug about having a caterham tucked up in the garage

jont- wrote:

sussex2 wrote:Aircraft have been fitted with ABS for far longer than cars.
I can't think of any pilot who would attempt not to use this if needs be.
All these devices are there, to be used, as and when they have to be.
What does need to be done is to educate people to their use.
It's said that it takes about 50 years to really change attitudes so there will be plenty of people out there still driving with a Morris Minor in mind

Certainly I was skeptical about the value of such systems - it's only in the last couple of years I've owned a car with anything more advanced than ABS, and only by experimenting on proving grounds and testing facilities I've gained confidence in what they do/how they work. Mrs JonT's new car has AEB - I'd very much like to try that in anger (against some sort of inflateable target) to get an understanding of in what circumstances it works and how it manifests itself.

Mind you, having just spent a few days talking to all sorts of people about where the technology will be in another 5 years time, I'm feeling quite smug about having a caterham tucked up in the garage

Likewise with my MX5 (sans ABS, ESC, A/C) and with the rust (they all have it) expertly sorted out it should last at least that long - smug suits

Gareth wrote:I'd suggest it's worth a learner doing an emergency stop and activating ABS, so they learn how it feels, but I'd suggest that learners should also be able to perform an emergency stop without activating the ABS, since in a non-ABS car that would be the same as losing control.

I don't think Gareth is saying that in an ABS-equipped car, activating ABS is losing control. Clearly that is not the case; ABS allows the driver to maintain control (and steer) at the extremity of braking. I have highlighted Gareth's caveat, which is true: At the limit where ABS cuts in, a non-ABS car would be locking its wheels and most drivers would have lost control.

Gareth wrote:The point is that ABS activates when the driver has already lost control, but provides them with a safety net; it would be better if new drivers understood this.

I think that would be better worded "At the point that ABS activates, it is preventing a loss of control (which would otherwise occur)."

ancient wrote:

Gareth wrote:I'd suggest it's worth a learner doing an emergency stop and activating ABS, so they learn how it feels, but I'd suggest that learners should also be able to perform an emergency stop without activating the ABS, since in a non-ABS car that would be the same as losing control.

I don't think Gareth is saying that in an ABS-equipped car, activating ABS is losing control. Clearly that is not the case; ABS allows the driver to maintain control (and steer) at the extremity of braking. I have highlighted Gareth's caveat, which is true: At the limit where ABS cuts in, a non-ABS car would be locking its wheels and most drivers would have lost control.

Gareth wrote:The point is that ABS activates when the driver has already lost control, but provides them with a safety net; it would be better if new drivers understood this.

I think that would be better worded "At the point that ABS activates, it is preventing a loss of control (which would otherwise occur)."

The handbook to a Seat we had expressed it this way 'No device fitted to this vehicle can defeat the laws of physics' or some such - quite blunt anyway.
It does seem to me though that many handbooks place more emphasis on the manufacturer not being sued than on proper instruction.

sussex2 wrote: The handbook to a Seat we had expressed it this way 'No device fitted to this vehicle can defeat the laws of physics' or some such - quite blunt anyway.
It does seem to me though that many handbooks place more emphasis on the manufacturer not being sued than on proper instruction.

Hmmm compare that to some Vauxhall (?) advertising a few years ago, which claimed that it could cope with 'impossible' conditions . . .