40 mph ... Why?

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akirk
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby akirk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:05 am

I think that the nature of forum discussions tend to generalisations, and of course there is no way anyone can define every driver of a particular pattern, after all we don't see them all... But come and drive around here and every journey you will see them, and they are very clearly disengaged from the the reality of the context in which they drive...

Alasdair

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ChristianAB
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby ChristianAB » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:14 am

Rolyan wrote:
ChristianAB wrote:Maybe my memory is failing me but in each of the example taken above, the driver are performing an act that would make them fail their DSA driving test, as it would unduly impact road users waiting behind./quote]
I ththat the question was more about why they do it, rather than how well they were driving.

I was trying to understand the following:

akirk wrote:Totally disengaged from reality and unaware as to their own speed and the limits

Alasdair


i just wondered how Alisdaire had decided that every driver who drives in the manner described is unaware of the speed limits and unaware of their own speed. With recent issues forefront in our minds, perhaps we need to try and avoid labelling everyone who displeases us in exactly the same way.

I'm not defending the drivers (I'm not condemning them either) but I would like to understand them; perhaps a bit more empathy, rather than simplistic condemnation, might make the roads a better place. 'They are all zombies' is as unrealistic and unhelpful as 'They are all racists' (or capitalists, or ignorant, or wife beaters etc.).

I admit that when I first read the post, I was under the impression that it was referring to those drivers who are slow everywhere, rather than one fixed speed. I very rarely come across drivers who genuinely only drive at one fixed speed across any real distance and mix of road types and conditions. I accept there are some, but I'm surprised that you are seeing so many.

I find your penultimate paragraph interesting; you've decided that someone who drives 'too fast' within a built up area must not be thinking well or at all. Assuming that you are the final arbiter on all things safe, it's still a leap to believe that all those who drive outside your frame of reference are not thinking well or at all.

Hey ho, that ladder of inference is a tall one, and difficult for us to descend whilst wearing these filters!


No, I haven't 'decided' anything. remember, I said that I am yet to see or hear anything that would make me think otherwise. It's a theory of mine that has not been proven wrong so far (scientific method). No one really knows what goes into someone else's head. But my point is that so far, this theory has stood the test of time for me. In fact, I would be more than happy to hear anything that would make me change my mind and trigger an 'updated' theory. which is why I am on this thread in the first place. Long story short: I am really curious about this and happy if someone can prove me wrong without doubt. :swords:

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:07 am

ChristianAB wrote:
Rolyan wrote:Hey ho, that ladder of inference is a tall one, and difficult for us to descend whilst wearing these filters!


No, I haven't 'decided' anything. remember, I said that I am yet to see or hear anything that would make me think otherwise. It's a theory of mine that has not been proven wrong so far (scientific method).

The ladder of inference and those pesky filters explain perfectly well why most people's theories and strongly held beliefs are rarely proved wrong.

I was merely suggesting that I am not prepared to lump all drivers who drive in the way described as a) disengaged from reality and not knowing their own speed or the speed limit (Alisdaire) or b) Zombies (you).

I'm sure that some are, but not all. So if you are serious about your 'scientific method', and would genuinely like to discover an alternative hypothesis, I advise you to look for a black swan!

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:11 am

akirk wrote:I think that the nature of forum discussions tend to generalisations, and of course there is no way anyone can define every driver of a particular pattern, after all we don't see them all... But come and drive around here and every journey you will see them, and they are very clearly disengaged from the the reality of the context in which they drive...

Alasdair

As a scholar, a philosopher and a gentleman I can say hand on heart, with no hidden meaning, that I fully accept that you are seeing the above, which is what you expect to see.

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akirk
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby akirk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:20 am

I think that perhaps there is a disconnect here as we type rather than chat :)
when someone on a forum makes a generalisation it is exactly that - a handle to help explain something - a way of understanding what is happening...
I doubt that anyone believes it is a scientific proposal absolute in its determination...

I am happy that there are no doubt some drivers who are very deliberate in their decisions to drive at 40mph (known as the 40/40s here as they do 40 through the villages and 40 in the 60 limits), however, whatever their internal justification, they are clearly taking no notice of other road users or the normal custom in the UK of paying some regard to speed limits - even if only to always be below them / always be above them!

The other day on a NSL road locally I came around a corner to find an old lady peering over the wheel of a fairly new e-class Merc. as she drove along at under 20mph... She may have lacked confidence in driving that size / power of vehicle, there may have been a philosophical reason as to why she felt that 20mph was a sufficient top end aim for her on a NSL, but she clearly wasn't at any point plugged into reality - a reality which says that while legally she can do that speed and legally others should allow for bikes / pedestrians / horses / etc. around a bend, the unexpectedly low speed she was driving at could cause issues with other road users and that could cause an accident. On that particular road gravel lorries are out in force doing a reasonable speed, and motorbikes and cars fly around at certainly up to c. 80mph - now of course none of that is a justification for saying that she should / shouldn't decide to drive faster / slower - but she was clearly in a little bubble of her own and totally unaware of anyone else... I suspect you could have marched a line of Fresian cows across the road in front of her and she wouldn't have noticed! And I had plenty of time to study her until we were finished on that long straight (cars coming the other way) and on the next I was able to pass her... And she is not unusual around here...

Alasdair

Jonquirk
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Jonquirk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:04 am

It's difficult to make the case that someone driving at 40 in a NSL does not know the limit. If that same driver goes through the next village, with its 30 limit, at 40 then I think case proved, m'lud.

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:36 am

Jonquirk wrote:It's difficult to make the case that someone driving at 40 in a NSL does not know the limit. If that same driver goes through the next village, with its 30 limit, at 40 then I think case proved, m'lud.

Seriously?

I agree with Alisdaire that there is a disconnect when we type. But the idea that someone driving at 40mph in a 30mph limit proves that they don't know the limit is nonsensical. It proves nothing of the sort.

If someone drives at 40 in a 30, all it proves is that they are driving at 40 (and it doesn't even prove that!!!).

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:48 am

akirk wrote:I think that perhaps there is a disconnect here as we type rather than chat :)
when someone on a forum makes a generalisation it is exactly that - a handle to help explain something - a way of understanding what is happening...
I doubt that anyone believes it is a scientific proposal absolute in its determination...

i suspect most people use generalisations to support their own belief systems rather than help explain something.

Why do people drive at one speed - because they are all disconnected from reality and they do not know their own speed or the speed limit!

Is as bad as...

Why do advanced bikers offside - because they all want to showboat their knowledge and superiority over other road users.

Is as bad as....

Why have people voted remain - because they are all self centred and would rather look after their own finances than work for the common good.

I'm sure it's no big deal, I would prefer to avoid generalisations and labels that's all. Sadly, I think that people who resort to them are all idiots.

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StressedDave
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby StressedDave » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:29 pm

Rolyan wrote:I'm sure it's no big deal, I would prefer to avoid generalisations and labels that's all. Sadly, I think that people who resort to them are all idiots.

Please tell me that you missed the 'tongue in cheek' smiley off that bit... :facepalm:

Motes and beams dear chap otherwise. If of course you want to be revisionist on this, feel free...
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Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:45 pm

StressedDave wrote:
Rolyan wrote:I'm sure it's no big deal, I would prefer to avoid generalisations and labels that's all. Sadly, I think that people who resort to them are all idiots.

Please tell me that you missed the 'tongue in cheek' smiley off that bit... :facepalm:

Motes and beams dear chap otherwise. If of course you want to be revisionist on this, feel free...

I tend not to use smileys. I always assume that my peers can read it appropriately. There again, they do say never assume anything as it makes an ass out of you and me!


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