40 mph ... Why?

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akirk
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby akirk » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:10 pm

Rolyan wrote:
akirk wrote:Totally disengaged from reality and unaware as to their own speed and the limits

Alasdair

Really? I would be interested to know how you know that.


ooh lets see :D
because I am quite observant and it really is quite obvious...
the clues are all there in how they do / don't react to anything / everything - from cyclists to tractors, debris on the road to puddles, pedestrians, or even animals in front of them - they are on the road and will carry on regardless...

and because I have spoken to one or two at times and can confirm that they were totally unaware of speed limit changes (both over time in the same place, and as they progress along the road), some around here have been driving for 50 years at one speed and see no need to change, speed limits in the open country or the villages are not for them, so they don't bother looking!

Alasdair

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:24 pm

akirk wrote:
Rolyan wrote:
akirk wrote:Totally disengaged from reality and unaware as to their own speed and the limits

Alasdair

Really? I would be interested to know how you know that.


ooh lets see :D
because I am quite observant and it really is quite obvious...
the clues are all there in how they do / don't react to anything / everything - from cyclists to tractors, debris on the road to puddles, pedestrians, or even animals in front of them - they are on the road and will carry on regardless...

and because I have spoken to one or two at times and can confirm that they were totally unaware of speed limit changes (both over time in the same place, and as they progress along the road), some around here have been driving for 50 years at one speed and see no need to change, speed limits in the open country or the villages are not for them, so they don't bother looking!

Alasdair

Ah, that's different. If we're allowed to use the few we know to create a label for all, then yes, perhaps it is as simplistic as you suggest.

Ive also met some just like you, and there were various reasons, including 'this is fast enough for anyone', 'I'm not comfortable driving faster', 'it's a speed limit not a target', 'I'm a new driver and unsure being on my own', 'I deliberately drive at what I think is a safe speed' plus not paying attention. Etc etc etc.

I'm surprised so many of them have avoided serious traffic accidents if they are as disengaged as you say, but maybe they've just been lucky. Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's ever so slightly more complicated than you suggest.

waremark
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby waremark » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:50 pm

Maybe just trying to use least fuel?

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jont-
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby jont- » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:14 pm

waremark wrote:Maybe just trying to use least fuel?

In which case, bollox to them. They're using up the one things that is truly irreplaceable, and that's the time of everybody stuck behind them. If they aren't in a rush, perhaps they should get the bus. Meanwhile I'm increasingly fed up of tolerance for the incompetent/indifferent driver. The UK roads are far too busy - instead of building capacity we should be getting rid of people who aren't interested in paying attention to the activity of driving and playing nicely with other road users. Sod maximum speed limits, we need some minimums.

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akirk
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby akirk » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:46 pm

Rolyan wrote:Ah, that's different. If we're allowed to use the few we know to create a label for all, then yes, perhaps it is as simplistic as you suggest.

Ive also met some just like you, and there were various reasons, including 'this is fast enough for anyone', 'I'm not comfortable driving faster', 'it's a speed limit not a target', 'I'm a new driver and unsure being on my own', 'I deliberately drive at what I think is a safe speed' plus not paying attention. Etc etc etc.

I'm surprised so many of them have avoided serious traffic accidents if they are as disengaged as you say, but maybe they've just been lucky. Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's ever so slightly more complicated than you suggest.



All of your examples demonstrate a lack of understanding of the context in which they are driving and the fact that as a driver on the road you can not just make decisions based on your desires / needs / intentions etc. but have to do so in the context of other road users...

so - disengaged from reality is accurate in every one of those examples...
As Jon says - we no longer live in a world where there is the luxury of making a decision for yourself and ignoring how it impacts others...

Alasdair

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:48 pm

akirk wrote:
Rolyan wrote:Ah, that's different. If we're allowed to use the few we know to create a label for all, then yes, perhaps it is as simplistic as you suggest.

Ive also met some just like you, and there were various reasons, including 'this is fast enough for anyone', 'I'm not comfortable driving faster', 'it's a speed limit not a target', 'I'm a new driver and unsure being on my own', 'I deliberately drive at what I think is a safe speed' plus not paying attention. Etc etc etc.

I'm surprised so many of them have avoided serious traffic accidents if they are as disengaged as you say, but maybe they've just been lucky. Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's ever so slightly more complicated than you suggest.



All of your examples demonstrate a lack of understanding of the context in which they are driving and the fact that as a driver on the road you can not just make decisions based on your desires / needs / intentions etc. but have to do so in the context of other road users...

so - disengaged from reality is accurate in every one of those examples...
As Jon says - we no longer live in a world where there is the luxury of making a decision for yourself and ignoring how it impacts others...

Alasdair

Your original post suggested to me that you felt the drivers were oblivious of their actions. You said that they were unaware of their own speed and unaware of the speed limit. That's what you originally said, which I disagreed with. I was pointing out that many drivers who drive in the fashion described are extremely aware of the speed they are driving at. It is a conscious decision, they are fully aware of the impact they are having on other drivers, they are engaged with what is going on around them, but the still have their own reasons to drive at the speed they drive at.

So you are wrong to suggest that the examples I gave fit your model. They are anything but.

I'm not convinced by your claim that they are all disengaged from reality, although I accept that they are not fully engaged with your and my perception of reality!
Last edited by Rolyan on Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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akirk
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby akirk » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:15 pm

Perhaps we are coming at this from different angles, but I think we are saying the same thing...

the simple truth is that someone who says:
- I am a new driver and unsure being on my own - is seeing their choice in the context of their comfort / ability - not in the context of how that affects others
- I'm not comfortable driving faster - they are not exploring why that may be, and whether further training could help - they are failing to see how their choice is affecting others...
- this is fast enough for anyone - is a subjective opinion, failing to understand the views of others
etc.

they are all valid from their perspective, but in not taking into account the context in which they are driving they are not in touch with reality...
sorry if this sounds harsh, but driving is not a right, it is a privilege and one receives that within the context of sharing the road with other drivers - to only see issues from ones own perspective is to not be in touch with reality

Alasdair

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:54 pm

akirk wrote:Perhaps we are coming at this from different angles, but I think we are saying the same thing...

the simple truth is that someone who says:
- I am a new driver and unsure being on my own - is seeing their choice in the context of their comfort / ability - not in the context of how that affects others

Their comfort and ability is part of the decision, the same way as your comfort and ability is part of your decision. You don't know that they are not aware of, and factoring in, how it may affect others.

akirk wrote:- I'm not comfortable driving faster - they are not exploring why that may be, and whether further training could help - they are failing to see how their choice is affecting others...

How do you know? How have you determined that they are failing to see how their choice is affecting others? How do you know that they are not exploring other options?

akirk wrote:- this is fast enough for anyone - is a subjective opinion, failing to understand the views of others

Most things are subjective. But to be frank, your comments above appear to suggest that you are also failing to understand the views of others (these slow drivers we speak of).

akirk wrote:...they are all valid from their perspective, but in not taking into account the context in which they are driving they are not in touch with reality...

You've decided that they are not taking into account the context in which the are driving, I'm just questioning why you think that your interpretation is the correct one, and why you think it applies to everyone that drives this way.

akirk wrote:sorry if this sounds harsh, but driving is not a right, it is a privilege and one receives that within the context of sharing the road with other drivers - to only see issues from ones own perspective is to not be in touch with reality

Alasdair

Can you not see the irony in your last sentence?

I still question your labelling, analysis and understanding of everyone who drives this way. However, I'm only killing time until Question Time so I wish you well.

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ChristianAB
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby ChristianAB » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:04 am

Maybe my memory is failing me but in each of the example taken above, the driver are performing an act that would make them fail their DSA driving test, as it would unduly impact road users waiting behind.

With that said, 'this is fast enough for anyone', 'I'm not comfortable driving faster', 'it's a speed limit not a target', 'I'm a new driver and unsure being on my own' do not sit well with doing say, 45, in a 30, especially when the situation really requires no more than 30. So those justifications are probably fallacious, and the drivers uttering them are probably lacking in skill to the extent that they don't even realise that they are often driving too fast. Which would indicate that being aware of their own speed is probably too hard to do for them at their current skill level. (easy to check)

The last explanation 'I deliberately drive at what I think is a safe speed' , is more interesting. But someone who says that and then systematically drives too fast within built-up areas (doing, say,40 when 25 is required), must not be thinking well or at all. So whether those drivers are aware of their own speed is irrelevant. Doesn't matter as they have would have a warped awareness of reality either way.

Conclusion: I like to label those drivers 'Zombies', and I am yet to see or hear anything that would indicate that this is not a fair depiction of their mental state when they fall prey to the '40mph zombie curse of death'. 8-)
Last edited by ChristianAB on Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rolyan
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Re: 40 mph ... Why?

Postby Rolyan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:04 am

ChristianAB wrote:Maybe my memory is failing me but in each of the example taken above, the driver are performing an act that would make them fail their DSA driving test, as it would unduly impact road users waiting behind./quote]
I ththat the question was more about why they do it, rather than how well they were driving.

I was trying to understand the following:

akirk wrote:Totally disengaged from reality and unaware as to their own speed and the limits

Alasdair


i just wondered how Alisdaire had decided that every driver who drives in the manner described is unaware of the speed limits and unaware of their own speed. With recent issues forefront in our minds, perhaps we need to try and avoid labelling everyone who displeases us in exactly the same way.

I'm not defending the drivers (I'm not condemning them either) but I would like to understand them; perhaps a bit more empathy, rather than simplistic condemnation, might make the roads a better place. 'They are all zombies' is as unrealistic and unhelpful as 'They are all racists' (or capitalists, or ignorant, or wife beaters etc.).

I admit that when I first read the post, I was under the impression that it was referring to those drivers who are slow everywhere, rather than one fixed speed. I very rarely come across drivers who genuinely only drive at one fixed speed across any real distance and mix of road types and conditions. I accept there are some, but I'm surprised that you are seeing so many.

I find your penultimate paragraph interesting; you've decided that someone who drives 'too fast' within a built up area must not be thinking well or at all. Assuming that you are the final arbiter on all things safe, it's still a leap to believe that all those who drive outside your frame of reference are not thinking well or at all.

Hey ho, that ladder of inference is a tall one, and difficult for us to descend whilst wearing these filters!


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