EU - where did it go wrong?

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Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:42 pm

mainbeam wrote:
Rolyan wrote:There are various laws and rules and policies passed by (or obstructed by) the EU, that directly affect the UK. We cannot vote out or remove the people responsible.

I'm not happy with that situation, which is partly why I voted leave, but I'm happy for you to think it's okay and vote remain.


The laws are made with the help of our elected representatives. If you don't approve you can vote for different representatives. It is actually quite unusual for our elected representatives to be overruled in the EU and in those cases they believe it is a price worth paying and we elected them to make that choice. As I said above you may not be happy with the 5% of laws we have to accept as the price for being part of the single market but you are massively overstating the democratic deficit in the EU.

It's a matter of public record that in the last 25 years, a large percentage of legislation has come about as a direct result of the EU. In 2010, the government reported that 50% of the legislation that has 'significant impact' on the UK is a direct result of the EU. So hardly the 5% you report; that is far less than even the lowest estimate given so far. It's extremely difficult (I would suggest impossible) to calculate the exact percentage. I usually give 25% as its towards the lower end of many estimates, but I personally believe the actual percentage is much much higher, particularly if you include all the influence of the EU. The official position of the European Parliament is that "a big portion of the laws adopted by the House of Commons and House of Lords actually are EU-laws that are made into national laws by the national parliaments".

But of course it's not just the laws. It's the EU policies on fisheries, energy, taxes, benefits, free movement, communities, subsidies, etc. We have to accept those rules, laws and policies; EU regulations have binding legal force, and we cannot vote out those who introduce them.

I would rather the electorate be allowed to remove from power those who fail to deliver and/or enforce rules, laws and policies. However, I appreciate that you don't agree; you don't have to, that's democracy. Having been allowed a democratic vote I'm happy that the majority also want that democratic power returned to them.

StrangelyBrown has already answered your next question

Strangely Brown wrote:
mainbeam wrote:What is your view in on the loss of sovereignty under NATO membership?


We haven't lost sovereignty. NATO does not control the UK armed forces unless they are operating as part of a NATO operation. The UK armed forces can, and do, operate autonomously. Remember 1982? Are you suggesting that was NATO?

mainbeam
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby mainbeam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:18 am

Rolyan wrote: But I can comment on the ones I know personally, and the ones I've read on here, and their views are not what you say they are.

That is your problem. The ones you know personally are unlikely to be representative of the diverse reasons for voting. I am not commenting on people I have spoken to personally as that would make my perception as distorted as yours. I am basing it on comments made by people I do not know. Obviously I have not claimed I know what others views on here are, just that they are not necessarily representative of others.

mainbeam
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby mainbeam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:53 am

Rolyan wrote: It's a matter of public record that in the last 25 years, a large percentage of legislation has come about as a direct result of the EU. In 2010, the government reported that 50% of the legislation that has 'significant impact' on the UK is a direct result of the EU. So hardly the 5% you report; that is far less than even the lowest estimate given so far.


You are reading but not comprehending. The misconception that you and others have is that EU laws are made by unelected bureaucrats that cannot be removed from office by the UK electorate. This is a myth that is peddled by the Leave campaign because it is an easy win for votes.

EU laws are made through negotiation by elected representatives of EU Member States. Our democratically elected representatives choose for us to be bound by these laws in the vast majority of cases. It is only on matters of the single market that QMV applies and in the vast majority of cases the UK is not outvoted.

You are conflating the volume of law made at the EU level with those laws being made contrary to the wishes of our elected representatives.

Rolyan wrote: EU regulations have binding legal force, and we cannot vote out those who introduce them."
This reaffirms your misunderstanding as to how these Regulations are made.



Rolyan wrote: I would rather the electorate be allowed to remove from power those who fail to deliver and/or enforce rules, laws and policies. However, I appreciate that you don't agree; you don't have to, that's democracy. Having been allowed a democratic vote I'm happy that the majority also want that democratic power returned to them.

This of course is simply a self-serving non-sequitur. Enough said.




Last year net migration from outside the EU was around 180,000. We control this migration. It appears that Government doesn't reduce migration because Government understands the UK needs migration. Government also understands the need for the single market notwithstanding when not in Government individuals may oppose it.


As I said in my first post, be careful what you wish for. Will those in power really leave the single market to free us from the regulations - particularly free movement of people - that many thought they were voting for? Or will they sign us up to the single market, accepting free movement of people without retaining our seat at the negotiating table?

mainbeam
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby mainbeam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:00 am

hir wrote:
Gareth wrote:
hir wrote:The question that needs to be addressed is... are we going to attempt to negotiate free access to the single market, and if we are, how are we going to negotiate an exemption to the EU's condition of free movement of labour?

Although one of the four pillars of EEA membership is free movement of people, I heard today on Radio 4 "Law in Action" that member countries can restrict free movement in some situations.

Haven't yet found the clauses but anyone can read through the rules at http://www.efta.int/legal-texts/eea.


ETA - Article 33 says "The provisions of this Chapter and measures taken in pursuance thereof shall not prejudice the applicability of provisions laid down by law, regulation or administrative action providing for special treatment for foreign nationals on grounds of public policy, public security or public health." - being a restatement of the same provision as part of Article 28.


I don't think there was ever going to be any mileage for immigration control in these provisions, otherwise UKIP would have told us about it:


Quite, these provisions apply to unusual cases. There may be some scope to have limited access to the single market in return for limited migration. What will be interesting to see is whether or not rules change at an EU level.

mainbeam
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby mainbeam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:01 am

Strangely Brown wrote:
mainbeam wrote:What is your view in on the loss of sovereignty under NATO membership?


We haven't lost sovereignty. NATO does not control the UK armed forces unless they are operating as part of a NATO operation. The UK armed forces can, and do, operate autonomously. Remember 1982? Are you suggesting that was NATO?


I think we have a different understanding of the meaning of sovereignty. If Putin annexes Latvia to Russia we are at war with the Russians regardless of the will of our democratically elected Parliament. That is because we have, through the Treaty, given up the right to make that decision. This was not imposed on us any more than the vast majority of EU law is imposed on us but it does bind us as does EU law.

sussex2
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby sussex2 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:13 am

It will be interesting to see how our own 'elf and saferty' fascists will react to this change. It's my considered opinion that the vast majority of this is true home brew and not imported.
I must make it quite clear that I do not believe in people being killed and injured in their jobs just to keep the profits up.

Gareth
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Gareth » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:34 am

mainbeam wrote:Last year net migration from outside the EU was around 180,000. We control this migration.

According to fullfact.org, net annual migration from the EU and from outside the EU is currently about the same, around 180,000 in each category.

There are a couple of significant differences, though.

One is that of the non-EU net migration only 31% are coming here to work or to seek work, compared with 73% from the EU or, to put that in figures, approximately 55,800 and 131,400 respectively. Another is that of the non-EU net migration 47% are coming here to study, compared with 15% from the EU.

I'm not sure how people coming here to study is much of an issue; presumably they bring money into the country and opportunities for more locals to be employed in providing the education facilities.

If the study category is excluded, annual net migration to the UK would be about 95,400 from outside the EU vs 153,000 from the EU.

Finally, I think the annual net migration to the UK from outside the EU includes people being given asylum but shouldn't, for fairly obvious reasons, apply to people coming from the EU. According to the Migration Observatory, the number of people granted asylum (applicants and their accompanying dependents) in the UK is significant (in the context of annual non-EU net migration to the UK) but I'll be blowed if I can work out the 2014 figure from that website.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

sussex2
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby sussex2 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:49 am

More and more rumblings from the dissatisfied:

http://www.breentry.co.uk/

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akirk
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby akirk » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:23 pm

Current:
Juncker has placed a 'presidential ban' on any EU commissioners talking to anyone from the UK - democracy? or self-preservation of power?

May 2016:
The President of the unelected executive arm of the European Union (EU) has vowed to block all right wing populists from power across the continent, shortly after acquiring the power to exert “far-reaching sanctions” on elected governments.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, promised to exclude Norbert Hofer, the leader of Austria’s Freedom Party (FPÖ), from all EU decision-making if elected ahead of yesterday’s presidential vote.

The Commission can now trigger a “rule of law mechanism” (Article 7 TEU) against nations it perceives as deviating from “the common constitutional traditions of all Member States.” Ultimately, “far-reaching sanctions” can be exerted, and a country can be stripped of all voting rights in the EU and have funding blocked.


In January this year, Frans Timmermans, the first ever unelected Commission “vice president,” who is in charge of “human rights,” triggered the mechanism for the first time against Poland’s government which came to power in a record-breaking, landslide election in 2015.


Do folks really not understand the nature of the EU - this is un-elected people telling governments off, telling countries off for voting in their own governments of course this is not democracy - this is what many people - who are fully aware of what is happening in the EU - were voting against...

We can wrap it up however you want to - but when you have unelected people having the power to choose how countries elect their governments - that is dictatorship under another name - to give it a feeling of respectability doesn't change it...

It is really simple - people want the power to choose what happens in their own countries - there is no desire to have this level of control or interference from a bunch of unelected people... and if you were to analyse the reasons for remain - many of them are economic (and valid) reasons - however this is a part of the issue, the EU gives economic promises with one hand while taking power with the other - and pretending it isn't...

UK people simply want autonomy and control - the vast majority of leave voters would agree with remain voters in wanting to trade with European countries (note not the EU, but Europe - 2 very different things), the majority of remain voters would agree with the leave voters that they don't wish to give away sovereignty, the problem is that the leave voters believe that we must preserve our control and democracy, and we can have economic unity from outside (as we do with many countries around the world), the remain voters believe that we shouldn't give up economic prosperity when the risk of losing democracy is low... However I think the bullying response from those such as Juncker since the vote possibly confirms the leave vote assumptions - how he thinks he can ban commissioners from talking to the UK when we are still legally in the EU I don't know - might be awkward when we take over the presidency in 2017!

Alasdair

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Strangely Brown
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Strangely Brown » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:47 pm

sussex2 wrote:More and more rumblings from the dissatisfied:

http://www.breentry.co.uk/


That, more than anything else, is the most heartbreaking part of all this. That it has brought out so many people who either don't understand what democracy means, or who simply don't give a shit and would cast it aside just to have their own preference. Really? Here, today, in this country that has lost so many fighting to preserve the very thing that they are so ready to discard?

The age breakdown of the remain/leave camps is revealing enough, but I would love to see the age/demographic of those that wish to ignore the result. I would put good money on there being a direct correlation between those that are furthest away from the generations that served and the willingness to give up that for which they fought.

This is not the country that I thought I knew.


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