EU - where did it go wrong?

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Gareth
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Gareth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:39 pm

sussex2 wrote:I've seen it in Spain where today, 80 years after the Civil War ended, there are people who will not talk to one another. It is responsible for the virtual silence you get in many public places such as trains and aircraft; you don't open the conversation because you never know where it is going to go.

Is your purpose to talk up the divisions? We'll only have the result you predict if we, collectively, are stupid enough to choose it.
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jont-
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby jont- » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:07 pm

Gareth wrote:
sussex2 wrote:I've seen it in Spain where today, 80 years after the Civil War ended, there are people who will not talk to one another. It is responsible for the virtual silence you get in many public places such as trains and aircraft; you don't open the conversation because you never know where it is going to go.

Is your purpose to talk up the divisions? We'll only have the result you predict if we, collectively, are stupid enough to choose it.

Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave..... :flail:

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:24 pm

jont- wrote:
Gareth wrote:
sussex2 wrote:I've seen it in Spain where today, 80 years after the Civil War ended, there are people who will not talk to one another. It is responsible for the virtual silence you get in many public places such as trains and aircraft; you don't open the conversation because you never know where it is going to go.

Is your purpose to talk up the divisions? We'll only have the result you predict if we, collectively, are stupid enough to choose it.

Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave..... :flail:

Again, talking up the divisions.

I can understand people not understanding the financial markets and reacting to the doom and gloom of the populist papers. I can sympathise with those who are disapointed in a political figure who is refusing to accept his part in 'remains' downfall. I can certainly understand those who are concerned for the future and want some reassurance.

But those like yourself and others in remain who are intent on stirring up the divisions, hatred and dissatisfaction are far worse than any of the leavers I've come across so far. Yes, it will be nice for you to see it fail, even if that brings despair, simply so that you can say "I told you so". But it's sad to see.

Gareth
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Gareth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:39 pm

jont- wrote:Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave.....

What is your position if the reports of the move to a European super-state [thenews.pl, source is 'TVP Info' Polish news website] prove to be well founded?
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mainbeam
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby mainbeam » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:00 pm

Rolyan wrote:...But those like yourself and others in remain who are intent on stirring up the divisions, hatred and dissatisfaction...


It worked for the Leave campaign.

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jont-
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby jont- » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:07 am

Gareth wrote:
jont- wrote:Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave.....

What is your position if the reports of the move to a European super-state [thenews.pl, source is 'TVP Info' Polish news website] prove to be well founded?

Given it only seems to have been proposed on the back of us voting to leave the EU, I'm not sure how helpful it is as a question. States within Schengen already don't have internal border controls, so I'm unclear as to how this would be different. Arguably if the border controls to the outside of schengen worked, you wouldn't have situations like the jungle at Calais, because these people would be picked up at the points of entry (having said that, you're probably unable to stop illegal movement - that's the point about it being illegal :roll: ).

I don't know about a fully unified tax system, but I'd certainly like to see the removal of the ability of firms like google, amazon etc to fiddle their corporation tax to the lowest rate country and instead contribute their fair share.

Unified armies? Well if that stopped our vanity trident replacement project, I'm sure we could think of lots of more useful things to do with the money.

I'm sure there would be lots of problems with a superstate - not least accountability and stopping pork barrel politics - and of course it's easy to dismiss out of hand as being undemocratic, unrepresentative and inefficient. But I come back to an earlier point made - given country boundaries are pretty much entirely artificial constructs, why do people feel the UK is the /right/ size to represent/govern them?

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:38 am

mainbeam wrote:
Rolyan wrote:...But those like yourself and others in remain who are intent on stirring up the divisions, hatred and dissatisfaction...


It worked for the Leave campaign.


I appreciate that you need to believe that.

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:51 am

jont- wrote:I'm sure there would be lots of problems with a superstate - not least accountability and stopping pork barrel politics.....why do people feel the UK is the /right/ size to represent/govern them?

Most leavers I've spoken to believe that the nearer a governing body is, the more able it is to understand the problems. They are less likely to enforce unwanted laws and policies. They are more accountable and moe easily removed.

I appreciate that you wanted to remain and it's good that everyone has different prioruties and views. But are you saying that you seriously can't understand why so many people want the UK to govern the UK?

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jont-
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby jont- » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:02 am

Rolyan wrote:
jont- wrote:I'm sure there would be lots of problems with a superstate - not least accountability and stopping pork barrel politics.....why do people feel the UK is the /right/ size to represent/govern them?

Most leavers I've spoken to believe that the nearer a governing body is, the more able it is to understand the problems. They are less likely to enforce unwanted laws and policies. They are more accountable and moe easily removed.

I appreciate that you wanted to remain and it's good that everyone has different prioruties and views. But are you saying that you seriously can't understand why so many people want the UK to govern the UK?

Not exactly - I'm more bemused/frustrated by the idea that they think Westminster /is/ accountable and that our politicians have anything other than their own careers/vested interests in mind and are capable of planning beyond the horizon of the next [leadership] election :roll:

Perhaps you could give me some concrete examples of legislation that Westminster wanted to enact that the EU wouldn't let them? Not the mud slinging FUD that is often trotted out, but real examples. Not quite EU (as it's ECHR), but the video in this link is quite good.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/vid ... r-us-video

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akirk
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby akirk » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:15 am

Because we can vote Westminster MPs out, we can't alter those in control in the EU.

Two simple current examples, the U.K. Commissioner in the EU has resigned, bearing in mind that the post represents the interests of the U.K. Who is replacing him? The EU is choosing a new commissioner, not the UK. As a part of the 'democracy' of the EU, the presidency rotates, the U.K. is due to hold the presidency in 2017, now the EU is looking at changing that... Democratic? It might be pragmatic, but it is not democratic!

For those I know who voted leave, this was at the heart of the issue, people who set our law but who are not accountable to the people they control, that is not democratic and as a country we believe in democracy.

Alasdair


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