EU - where did it go wrong?

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sussex2
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby sussex2 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:04 am

Is anyone else a little tired of hearing the word democracy over and over again?
The present sad state of affairs was not brought about by democracy but by a spat within one particular party.
If you analyse our particular political system then you find it is not particularly democratic. It looks, to me, far from that.

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:43 am

mainbeam wrote:
Rolyan wrote:
mainbeam wrote:
Rolyan wrote:...But those like yourself and others in remain who are intent on stirring up the divisions, hatred and dissatisfaction...


It worked for the Leave campaign.


I appreciate that you need to believe that.


It would be naïve to believe it didn't. I can appreciate why you need to convince yourself that those aspects of the Leave campaign had little or no affect on a sufficient number of people to result in a marginal difference. The difficultly you have is in convincing those who are neither naïve nor in denial that they must be wrong.

Yes, you're entitled to that opinion.

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:46 am

mainbeam wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:
That's the whole point! Your voice is not and cannot be heard by the EU. Further integration will only cement that yet you ask why it is such a bad idea?

That is also incorrect. Your voice is - and by implication can be - heard by the EU through our elected representatives. At the European Council, The Council of Ministers and the European Parliament.

If those in the UK parliament don't do what you want (or do what you don't want), you can vote them out. That isn't the case with the EU. That is the real issue for many, which I'm sure you know, even if you pretend that you think it's to do with being heard..

ancient
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby ancient » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:48 am

The UK system is far from perfect (but would work much better if people engaged with it and didn't encourage others to disengage), but that is no reason to run blindly from working with (and on) our own system towards a system which was originally set up specifically to prevent the democratic voice of the peoples of Europe from being heard (because they were afraid of another Hitler and it didn't occur to them that Napoleon was not elected :lol: ).

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Strangely Brown
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Strangely Brown » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:58 am

Exactly!

The most important issue, by far, is the sovereignty of the UK parliament and the supremacy of the UK courts. If you have that, then control of everything else (immigration, taxes, defence etc) can follow. Without it you are at the whim of those who will always have their own interests above yours.

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:06 pm

Horse wrote:
jont- wrote:
akirk wrote:Because we can vote Westminster MPs out, we can't alter those in control in the EU.
I have no chance of having my views represented at westminster since I disagree with both major parties policies - if you live in a "safe" constituency, unless you agree with the "safe" party, your vote has /no/ value. At least the EU has PR, so my vote has some value.


Intriguingly, in several areas the voters went against the stated views of their MP, e.g. Wokingham's John Redwood - who is staunchly anti-EU - was not supported by constituents who instead voted 'remain'.

Good to hear, Democracy in action.

Of the many strange discussions I've had over that last few days, one of the strangest was included in the tirade of abuse from a remainer against all leave voters. This was at a meal out, so it was not the most pleasant dining experience.

Of the many strange points she made, 3 stick in my mind.

Firstly, she insisted that everyone should have voted as their MP told them. She wanted to know why, as left wingers, I and other leavers had voted against what the Labour party said. We had been told how to vote and we should have done so.

Secondly, one of the diners commented that the partners at the Vet's that she worked at had written to all employees advising them to vote remain. Most diners said this should not be done, but this Remain Lady insisted there was nothing wrong. Her reason...."of course it's okay to tell employees how to vote if it's the right decision". She would not hear otherwise.

Finally, my partner is a support worker at a College, and she mentioned that on several occasions the Lecturers (in different subjects, nothing to do with Politics, Economics or the EU) had told the students (often quite young and impressionable) that they should vote to remain. The Remain Lady again insisted that this was acceptable.

I'm not suggesting that this woman is representative of the remain voters. It's clear that many in the remain camp are sensible, passionate voters who care about the UK just as much as the leave voters. I'm sure most remainers have thought this vote through just as well, and just as carefully, as the leave voters. But it was really strange to hear such puerile nonsense from a well educated, mature and apparently sane individual; it certainly took the edge off the meal for most of the diners, particularly as she was so strident, so aggressive and so resistant to any attempt at understanding anyone who had voted differently to her.

Rolyan
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Rolyan » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:15 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:Exactly!

The most important issue, by far, is the sovereignty of the UK parliament and the supremacy of the UK courts. If you have that, then control of everything else (immigration, taxes, defence etc) can follow. Without it you are at the whim of those who will always have their own interests above yours.

Double exactly (or exactly squared).

For almost all of the leave voters I know, including those who were undecided but then decided to vote leave, the sovereignty of the UK parliament and the supremacy of the UK courts was the most important issue.

I genuinely think that because the remain camp refused to treat the leave voters as anything else but racist xenophobes, they missed their chance to argue fairly and rationally about the real reasons for most people's concerns. Even now, they cant seem to accept it, and their refusal to acknowledge the leavers as their equals means the differences will probably not get addressed.

Shame really.

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Horse
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Horse » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:42 pm

Rolyan wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:Exactly!

The most important issue, by far, is the sovereignty of the UK parliament and the supremacy of the UK courts. If you have that, then control of everything else (immigration, taxes, defence etc) can follow. Without it you are at the whim of those who will always have their own interests above yours.

Double exactly (or exactly squared).

I genuinely think that because the remain camp refused to treat the leave voters as anything else but racist xenophobes, they missed their chance to argue fairly and rationally about the real reasons for most people's concerns.


Didn't Osborne promise an emergency austerity budget, and interest rate rises?

*Pop* It's the Gov. of the Bank of England - it's all going to be fine!
*Pop* It's GO - it's all going to be fine - we've been planning for months to make sure!

Well someone was telling porkies, weren't they . . .
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

Gareth
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby Gareth » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:57 pm

Horse wrote:Well someone was telling porkies, weren't they . . .

It's possible they actually thought what they said, then when the unexpected circumstance arrived, they found they thought differently.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

mainbeam
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Re: EU - where did it go wrong?

Postby mainbeam » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:24 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:
akirk wrote:Okay, you are correct that as an individual you don't have that power, but no-one does anywhere in the world! But as a people we absolutely do have that power as was demonstrated on Thursday by the majority voting against the view of the politicians.

Alasdair



The result may not be legally binding but any government that fails to uphold the result would be out at the next election. That's called democracy. All the MPs that are talking about blocking the exit and ignoring the result are doing themselves no favours. They are merely confirming the fact that the Westminster elite do not listen to the electorate. How long do you think they will last?


Of course the result is politically binding. You missed the point that we were not entitled to it. Our elected representatives deigned to give it to us and only because of narrow party political interests. Absent those interest it wouldn't have happened. We are not the democracy being suggested.


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