EU - where did it go wrong?

[fungus]

..Which, inevitably, leads to higher unemployment, and bigger benefits bills, unless our workers migrate elsewhere in search of jobs in their turn.

Neither inevitable or particularly correct.

I was wondering why you think this. Are you suggesting that people coming to work in the UK only take jobs which otherwise wouldn't get done?

In an item published on the Guardian website, the idea is put forward that large numbers of people coming to the UK who are willing to work for wages that are considered low in the UK have put pressure on that segment of the job market where the competition for work is most fierce, resulting in wages being kept low or pushed lower, suggesting there are more people looking for work than there are jobs to fill.

That's always been the case. Full employment with not enough workers to fill the vacancies, higher wages. Fewer jobs with many suitable applicants for one position, low wages. Supply and demand.

Nigel.

[irf520]

This article gives an idea of where it went wrong:

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/frederick-forsyth/651377/Brexit-referendum-EU-never-meant-to-be-democracy-says-Frederick-Forsyth

Basically it went wrong from the very beginning by trying to create a small clique's idea of a utopia while disregarding the opinion of the people at large and by using obfuscation and deception to hide their true intentions whenever anyone started asking awkward questions.

[martine]

Interesting discussion and nice to see intelligent people here debating - in contrast to all the hatred and extreme stuff being broadcast elsewhere.

Immigration is over-played in my view. I was tempted to vote 'leave' due to other factors as well: EU bureaucracy, lack of audit, the Euro crisis, EU laws and directives on areas I didn't think they should be dabbling at.

I was very undecided and in the end voted 'remain'.

Both campaigns were very flawed but I'm not sure how you can get unbiased information across the to the masses in a digestible and interesting way.

I love the petition currently doing the rounds in social media for a revote...which seems to be: if you don't like the result, change the rules?

[Astraist]

As an external observer with some understanding of politics: Isn't the reason for splitting ways with the EU the result of the UK just not feeling a part of it?

The EU is essentially an attempt at creating what is one big country. But, in a world still dominated by national ideas, such big countries don't really work. They tend to break down in the end into smaller bits where the population is more homogenic.

Do the British nationals feel European? Do they see the UK as part of Europe? If they aren't, than being a part of a European Union is always going to be contrived. Simple as that.

It isn't strictly a UK problem either. The Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden have also been dabbling with the idea of seperating from the EU, and on the other end of the spectrum - the mediterranean countries of Spain, Greece and Italy are constantly teetering on quitting it as well.

In both cases, something in the identity of these nations isn't European, at least not in the same sense as Germany or France. This by the way is a trully frightening prospect to the EU, because if it loses all of these members, it essentially won't be true to it's name and would have no purpose.

By the way, the Israeli society looks at the EU with such admiration, that the local media tends to observe the split in a very sombre tone. To me it feels like they are doing way too much in the way of portraying the possible bad outcomes to Britian and especially the EU, as well as the rallies of those who try to refute the credibility of the vote. To the simpletons here it would sound like practically everyone who voted to split woke up the next morning and regretted their decision...

[Strangely Brown]

This article gives an idea of where it went wrong:

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/frederick-forsyth/651377/Brexit-referendum-EU-never-meant-to-be-democracy-says-Frederick-Forsyth

Basically it went wrong from the very beginning by trying to create a small clique's idea of a utopia while disregarding the opinion of the people at large and by using obfuscation and deception to hide their true intentions whenever anyone started asking awkward questions.

I hadn't seen that article but it's nice to have my own understanding of the matter confirmed.

Now that we are having a referendum - I think that most of the economics discussion is an irrelevance, as is immigration - for both we could choose any approach either in or out... I think the main debate now is around sovereignty, do we want to be run by those we elect and can choose to remove every 5 years, or nameless unelected mandarins in Europe, I suspect that for many this will be the basis for voting

DIng! We have a winner.

This is actually the ONLY issue. Everything else discussed in the campaigns, either in or out, ultimately comes down to the question of the supremacy of parliament. We can only control our own destiny if we actually have the power to remove/change those in charge.

We only really have a vote if you happen to believe in the policies of either of the two major parties. /just look at the fraction of the vote UKIP received at the last election compared to the number of seats they won - you can do the same with the SNP too. Then try and convince me we have fair representation, never mind the chance of having a government from neither of the two major parties.

I agree with you completely. The point, though, is that it is OUR government, voted for by US, not some faceless EU group over which we have no power. And if the system is flawed then at least we have the option to change it.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that the handing of powers to a government in Europe is wrong on so many levels. When a party is given a mandate to run the country for five years at a general election, they are LOANED that power by the people. At the end of that period, that mandate must be handed back to the people. It is not something that can be given away. Only the people can do that, and this is what the referendum is all about. If we stay in then we are effectively signing away the country to become part of a European Federal SuperState. The goal of the EU is not a secret. Cameron is right - this is a one-way deal.

It's a shame that others can't see the EU for what it really is.

[Rolyan]

As an external observer with some understanding of politics: Isn't the reason for splitting ways with the EU the result of the UK just not feeling a part of it?

To the simpletons here it would sound like practically everyone who voted to split woke up the next morning and regretted their decision...

You're correct; most of the leavers I know don't feel part of the EU, but are fed up of the lack of control and the move to ever greater integration, political and otherwise.

The simpletons are wrong, but they need to cling to something. I've never seen so many fail to grasp what's happened, and they are comically clinging to this idea that those that voted leave didn't really want it. Idiotic I know, but there will always be the simpleton that believes it.

[Gareth]

I think it would be a mistake to assume that individuals were wholly for staying in the European Union, or wholly for leaving it. Nearly everyone I've discussed this with has been seen good and bad points for staying, good and bad points for leaving, then made their decision by weighing them up.

[userLeft1]

..Which, inevitably, leads to higher unemployment, and bigger benefits bills, unless our workers migrate elsewhere in search of jobs in their turn.

Neither inevitable or particularly correct.

I was wondering why you think this. Are you suggesting that people coming to work in the UK only take jobs which otherwise wouldn't get done..

Immigration is a driver of economic growth. It allows employers to employ more people particularly in unskilled work - a specialty of the UK economy. Why do you think there is fierce competition for unskilled work? Either of us could walk into an unskilled job tomorrow with next to no effort. Turnover in these jobs is usually high.

Large scale immigration has coincided with large scale job creation since the mid 1990s.
It is simplistic to believe that UK workers are being displaced by migrant labour in large numbers. There has also been some localised downward pressure on wages due to migration but not anywhere near to the extent suggested by many.

[sussex2]

As an external observer with some understanding of politics: Isn't the reason for splitting ways with the EU the result of the UK just not feeling a part of it?

The EU is essentially an attempt at creating what is one big country. But, in a world still dominated by national ideas, such big countries don't really work. They tend to break down in the end into smaller bits where the population is more homogenic.

Do the British nationals feel European? Do they see the UK as part of Europe? If they aren't, than being a part of a European Union is always going to be contrived. Simple as that.

It isn't strictly a UK problem either. The Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden have also been dabbling with the idea of seperating from the EU, and on the other end of the spectrum - the mediterranean countries of Spain, Greece and Italy are constantly teetering on quitting it as well.

In both cases, something in the identity of these nations isn't European, at least not in the same sense as Germany or France. This by the way is a trully frightening prospect to the EU, because if it loses all of these members, it essentially won't be true to it's name and would have no purpose.

By the way, the Israeli society looks at the EU with such admiration, that the local media tends to observe the split in a very sombre tone. To me it feels like they are doing way too much in the way of portraying the possible bad outcomes to Britian and especially the EU, as well as the rallies of those who try to refute the credibility of the vote. To the simpletons here it would sound like practically everyone who voted to split woke up the next morning and regretted their decision...

I wouldn't get to carried away with the idea that other countries are not keen on the EU.
Living in two EU countries (and passports from two - luckily!) I can tell you that I rarely hear that much protest.
The idea that the UK will somehow trigger a domino affect of other countries leaving is I believe a pipe dream.
It should also be born in mind that some of the separatist parties in these countries make the EDF or UKIP look like a pensioners day out at the seaside! Do we honestly want to be associated with that.

[Astraist]

With the mediterranean countries, the EU doesn't want them either.

Greece in particular is teetering over the verge of leaving it, by virtue of just being a backwards-twisted-disfunctional economy (read: best country ever ) with a HUGH debt to the union.