The EU - Leave or Remain?

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Strangely Brown
Posts: 1018
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Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:54 am

Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Silk wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:We've voted to leave. 52% to 48%.

I hope you're all fucking happy.


Surprisingly enough, I voted remain.


Huh, another mistake, but fortunately no harm done. :P


I don't see what a quote from one of your driving commentaries has anything to do with it.


Sorry, Dave. I couldn't help laughing out loud at that. :lol:

hir
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby hir » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:38 am

sussex2 wrote:
I'm confused about what you mean by freedom and independence.
A brief look through history will tell you that we have never had either of those; we've not had complete freedom from our neighbours nor complete independence from them.
If we are doing that now, gaining true independence and genuine freedom, then it will be the first time. It will be truly revolutionary.


In fairness to Dave and other Leavers, what each of them is seeking is a return to the place which each of them once inhabited before the EU horror was foisted upon them. Unfortunately what they seek is a purely illusory land of lost content; a place which only ever existed in their memory and can therefore never be revisited.

A. E. Housman put it into words thus:

INTO my heart on air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?

That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.


The last four lines carry the most potency. The leaving of the EU will not alter that reality.


As I see it, one of the biggest problems the UK now has to face is the polarisation of its citizenry:-

The Remainers 48%. This constituency had one aim and that was to Remain. This 48% were not divided on that purpose.

Scotland 60/40 in favour of remaining in the EU. This result is at odds with what England & Wales has voted for. This may lead to Scottish independence.

Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly for Remain. This may lead to calls for unification with the Republic.

The Brexiters 52%. This constituency is completely divided, nobody knows exactly what they want for the future of the UK. Their two principal objectives were control over immigration and regaining sovereignty. Yesterday, their prospective leader, Boris, said he doesn't expect to see a huge reduction in immigration, what he wants is control over who comes in and an end to the current discriminatory arrangements whereby preference is given to EU citizens. Er, no, Boris. I don't think that's what most of your supporters voted for. The goal of a large number of Brexit voters is... no more immigration. At the extreme end of that spectrum we even have calls to... send the immigrants back. Daniel Hannan, who has studiously remained silent when questioned repeatedly about free movement of labour and free access to the single market, is now echoing Boris' view on this. So, we could end up with a new "Westminster Elite" in the form of Boris, Michael and Daniel who are out of touch with both the 52% and the 48%.

Historically, the attraction of parties like UKIP was that it could be all things to all men. If you wanted an end to immigration. Vote UKIP. If you wanted to send all the immigrants home. Vote UKIP. If you wanted bendy bananas. Vote UKIP. If you wanted incandescent lightbulbs. Vote UKIP. If you wanted to bring back hanging. Vote UKIP. Now that the responsibility of power has been handed to the divided Brexit majority things could get very interesting

hir
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby hir » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:44 am

Rolyan wrote: We voted to leave for what we believed were the right reasons, and that includes caring about our children and the next generation just as much as you or anybody else.


Here is another example of vagueness of purpose. I'm convinced of your sincerity in your stated objectives, but what does this mean in real, practical terms, please?

This vagueness now has to be converted into political reality. What is that reality?

sussex2
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:43 am

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby sussex2 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:21 am

hir wrote:
sussex2 wrote:
I'm confused about what you mean by freedom and independence.
A brief look through history will tell you that we have never had either of those; we've not had complete freedom from our neighbours nor complete independence from them.
If we are doing that now, gaining true independence and genuine freedom, then it will be the first time. It will be truly revolutionary.


In fairness to Dave and other Leavers, what each of them is seeking is a return to the place which each of them once inhabited before the EU horror was foisted upon them. Unfortunately what they seek is a purely illusory land of lost content; a place which only ever existed in their memory and can therefore never be revisited.

A. E. Housman put it into words thus:

INTO my heart on air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?

That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.


The last four lines carry the most potency. The leaving of the EU will not alter that reality.


As I see it, one of the biggest problems the UK now has to face is the polarisation of its citizenry:-

The Remainers 48%. This constituency had one aim and that was to Remain. This 48% were not divided on that purpose.

Scotland 60/40 in favour of remaining in the EU. This result is at odds with what England & Wales has voted for. This may lead to Scottish independence.

Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly for Remain. This may lead to calls for unification with the Republic.

The Brexiters 52%. This constituency is completely divided, nobody knows exactly what they want for the future of the UK. Their two principal objectives were control over immigration and regaining sovereignty. Yesterday, their prospective leader, Boris, said he doesn't expect to see a huge reduction in immigration, what he wants is control over who comes in and an end to the current discriminatory arrangements whereby preference is given to EU citizens. Er, no, Boris. I don't think that's what most of your supporters voted for. The goal of a large number of Brexit voters is... no more immigration. At the extreme end of that spectrum we even have calls to... send the immigrants back. Daniel Hannan, who has studiously remained silent when questioned repeatedly about free movement of labour and free access to the single market, is now echoing Boris' view on this. So, we could end up with a new "Westminster Elite" in the form of Boris, Michael and Daniel who are out of touch with both the 52% and the 48%.

Historically, the attraction of parties like UKIP was that it could be all things to all men. If you wanted an end to immigration. Vote UKIP. If you wanted to send all the immigrants home. Vote UKIP. If you wanted bendy bananas. Vote UKIP. If you wanted incandescent lightbulbs. Vote UKIP. If you wanted to bring back hanging. Vote UKIP. Now that the responsibility of power has been handed to the divided Brexit majority things could get very interesting


Interesting in ways this country has not experienced in anyone's living memory is my guess.
This, in my opinion, is going to cause divides that will last generations.
I've had experience of this in Spain where some people will still not talk to one another 80 years after the civil war. It is a subject you never mention.
There was actually a law passed 'The agreement to forget' but in day to day reality the divides still exist.
ps On a lighter note the small, bendy, bananas from the mainland and the Canary islands are tasty in a way the over large and virtually tasteless ones we get here are not. They have real pips and, purely IMO, they and the farmers were well worth protecting.

Rolyan
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:45 pm

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby Rolyan » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:58 am

hir wrote:
Rolyan wrote: We voted to leave for what we believed were the right reasons, and that includes caring about our children and the next generation just as much as you or anybody else.


Here is another example of vagueness of purpose. I'm convinced of you're img able sincerity in your stated objectives, but what does this mean in real, practical terms, please?

This vagueness now has to be converted into political reality. What is that reality?

Im not sure what you think is vague. Both sides have been clear about what they wanted. The Government must now achieve that, and we have the power to vote them in or out depending on how well they achieve those aims.

P.S. We would all do well to realise that the leave camp is not made up of idealistic old fogies trying to get back to some long forgotten dream. That is pure simplistic claptrap of the worst kind; it weakens the argument of any remainer that uses it, and is either foolhardy ignorance or the devious machinations of a spoilt loser.

hir
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby hir » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:14 pm

Rolyan wrote:
hir wrote:
Rolyan wrote: We voted to leave for what we believed were the right reasons, and that includes caring about our children and the next generation just as much as you or anybody else.


Here is another example of vagueness of purpose. I'm convinced of you're complete sincerity in your stated objectives, but what does this mean in real, practical terms, please?

This vagueness now has to be converted into political reality. What is that reality?

I'm not sure what you think is vague. Both sides have been clear about what they wanted. The Government must now achieve that, and we have the power to vote them in or out depending on how well they achieve those aims.


My observation was solely concerned with the words that you typed. The vagueness is perfectly clear.

A political decision was made as to whether we Remain within, or Leave, the EU. The reason for leaving given in your piece was... and that includes caring about our children and the next generation.

You then assign that objective to the Remain camp also by closing the sentence with... as much as you [a Remainer] or anybody else.

So, all you have said, quite rightly, is that all of us, Leavers and Remainers, care about our children and the next generation as much as each other. As an exposition of a political standpoint that's even vaguer than I first though upon my initial reading of the piece.

hir
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby hir » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:25 pm

Rolyan wrote:
P.S. We would all do well to realise that the leave camp is not made up of idealistic old fogies trying to get back to some long forgotten dream. That is pure simplistic claptrap of the worst kind; it weakens the argument of any remainer that uses it, and is either foolhardy ignorance or the devious machinations of a spoilt loser.



Brilliant. I like your spirit.

Now that you have poured scorn on the simplistic claptrap offered up by myself, perhaps you can explain in less emotive terms exactly how you envisage the UK will be a better place post-Brexit, please.

I look forward to your considered argument. As I've intimated elsewhere... "a better future for our children" is too vague an argument, in fact it's not an argument in any intelligible sense. It is a statement of opinion without supporting argument. I would like to know how and in what ways the Leavers believe the future will be better for our children post-Brexit, please.

Rolyan
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:45 pm

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby Rolyan » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:36 pm

hir wrote:
Rolyan wrote:
P.S. We would all do well to realise that the leave camp is not made up of idealistic old fogies trying to get back to some long forgotten dream. That is pure simplistic claptrap of the worst kind; it weakens the argument of any remainer that uses it, and is either foolhardy ignorance or the devious machinations of a spoilt loser.



Brilliant. I like your spirit.

Now that you have poured scorn on the simplistic claptrap offered up by myself, perhaps you can explain in less emotive terms exactly how you envisage the UK will be a better place post-Brexit, please.

I look forward to your considered argument. As I've intimated elsewhere... "a better future for our children" is too vague an argument, in fact it's not an argument in any intelligible sense. It is a statement of opinion without supporting argument. I would like to know how and in what ways the Leavers believe the future will be better for our children post-Brexit, please.

A better future for our children was not written as a political standpoint, as you well know. It was made to point out that not only the remainers care about the younger generation.

Re pouring scorn on your description of the leavers, your comments deserve that scorn. It is simplistic nonsense to try to suggest that leavers are wanting to return to pre EU days. Even if some did (and I haven't personally met any) you cannot group everyone together and dismiss them in such a way. So yes, if you use that argument it is simplistic claptrap. The thing is, I think you knew that when you wrote it; as the saying goes, you can't kid a kidder.

Re my reasons for wanting to leave, they are too many and complex to deal with on a forum. You and I both know that to make it manageable, the have to be reduced to 1 sentence arguments, allowing everyone to bicker but with no real attempt at understanding. But on the assumption that it is a serious question from you, here's a just can few reasons I voted to leave:

1) to get our contributions back - I believe we can spend it more wisely than EU decided subsidies.

2) to control our border more effectively, without free access.

3) to control our own laws. In the last 25 years a quarter of our acts of Parliament originated in the EU.

4) give our courts the final say

5) take ourselves out of the costly and beaurocratic EU.

6) stop funding the European Commission.

7) don't allow the proposed new members free access.

All the above, plus setting our own VAT, fisheries policy, energy policy, etc etc etc. Plus LOTS more. All of which I believe are good for my family and the country.

As I am now off to mount a mirror, I will be unavailable for some time.

TripleS
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Briggswath

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby TripleS » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:47 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:
Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Silk wrote:
Surprisingly enough, I voted remain.


Huh, another mistake, but fortunately no harm done. :P


I don't see what a quote from one of your driving commentaries has anything to do with it.


Sorry, Dave. I couldn't help laughing out loud at that. :lol:


Yes, it's very good - by Steve's standards.

Actually, if I were to do commentaries, which I don't, there would be a lot of references to my mistakes. No time to bother about the mistakes of other road users,

Silk
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: South Glos.

Re: The EU - Leave or Remain?

Postby Silk » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:07 pm

Rolyan wrote:
1) to get our contributions back - I believe we can spend it more wisely than EU decided subsidies.

2) to control our border more effectively, without free access.

3) to control our own laws. In the last 25 years a quarter of our acts of Parliament originated in the EU.

4) give our courts the final say

5) take ourselves out of the costly and beaurocratic EU.

6) stop funding the European Commission.

7) don't allow the proposed new members free access.

8) Remove the requirement for speed limiters on lorries.


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