The EU - Leave or Remain?

[jont-]

I voted for 100% of the system that appoints both civil service and supreme court, and if we had major problems with either the UK people could vote in those who could / would change it - we can't do that with the EU as we are not the full constituency...

So where do you want to stop your power play? England? Your county? Your town? House?
What makes "The uk" the right level of control, rather than something smaller or larger?

The main problem is we have very little in common with the rest of Europe. The fact that we speak a different language sees to most of that. The USA works largely because they have a common language and culture - they are all Americans together. With Europe, that isn't the case. Just look what happens when one of the states of the EU, such as Greece, gets into bother - the rest of states don't give a toss. That wouldn't be the case with the USA.

How can you accept being told what to do by people who would need a translator in order to do so?

I don't speak politician either (far to many weasel words) and don't like being told what to do by them too

Have you been to Europe at all Silk? I have many european colleagues (and other nationalities too), and work with people from across the world on a daily basis. I suspect I have far more in common with most of them than I do with many UK citizens. And they all speak pretty good english - again, many seem to have a better understanding of the language than many native english speakers

I'm bemused by all those that think the UKs success has nothing to do with easy access to EU markets and ease of hiring people from there. And also why they don't think if we decide to leave, the EU won't treat us harshly "pour encourager les autres" not to leave. It seems vastly arrogant to think the EU needs the UK more than we need it. And I wouldn't bet on "common sense" prevailing once the egos of politicians get involved.

As for UK democracy and fairness, our inability to address the West Lothian question cost me many thousands of pounds compared to "equal" UK citizens living in Scotland, and it's costing the current generation many tens of thousands. Ironically EU citizens don't pay tuition fees in Scotland thanks to EU law, but UK law overrides and means English students studying there do have to pay

[akirk]

I'm bemused by all those that think the UKs success has nothing to do with easy access to EU markets and ease of hiring people from there. And also why they don't think if we decide to leave, the EU won't treat us harshly "pour encourager les autres" not to leave. It seems vastly arrogant to think the EU needs the UK more than we need it. And I wouldn't bet on "common sense" prevailing once the egos of politicians get involved.

For me, this is a major reason to leave... To stay because otherwise we would be bullied is the wrong reason for staying, yes there could be some temporary pain in leaving, but there are already signs that the EU is failing,that other countries will elect based on a referendum to leave, our leaving could be the beginning of the end for the EU meaning no one to bully us anyway! And actually we are needed, we are a major reason behind the strength of the EU... But ultimately we need to do what is right for us as a country, we have stood up to bullies before, it cost us dearly but it was still the right thing to do, thankfully this is not directly comparable, but we should still do what is right...

Alasdair

[jont-]

Final thought - for those with kids (or grandkids) old enough to vote - have you asked what they think? There definitely seems to be a generational gap in which way people are inclined to vote.

[Gareth]

There definitely seems to be a generational gap in which way people are inclined to vote.

I think younger people tend to be more fearful about the consequences of leaving the EU and more optimistic about the benefits of staying in.

[jont-]

There definitely seems to be a generational gap in which way people are inclined to vote.

I think older people tend to be more optimistic about the benefits of leaving the EU and more fearful about the consequences of staying in.

/efa

[gannet]

Comes to something when the most balanced debate I've read or had the inclination to hear is on a driving forum!

I'm still undecided though, what does that say about me!?

[Silk]

Final thought - for those with kids (or grandkids) old enough to vote - have you asked what they think? There definitely seems to be a generational gap in which way people are inclined to vote.

I would say there is a gap in as much as the older generation don't like the EU because of Hitler and the younger generation don't like the EU because all the jobs have been taken by Eastern Europeans. Big business likes the EU because it can employ cheap labour or easily outsource it to cheaper parts of the EU. Because the EU is half-arsed, it's possible to make someone redundant in the UK and employ someone on a quarter of the salary in somewhere like Romania with impunity.

If you work in a factory, your job can be taken by cheap foreign labour; if you work behind a desk, that desk can be moved anywhere in the world without you.

[jont-]

if you work behind a desk, that desk can be moved anywhere in the world without you.

Only if they can find your skills.

Our company has the opposite problem - the UK is not providing enough skilled engineers, so we have no option but to recruit from abroad. We are a UK founded company, and would prefer to keep our HQ here. But I can see if recruitment becomes impossible, we'll have no option but to move more work out of the UK

The eastern europeans (if you're talking about low wage, low skill jobs) are only doing work brits are too lazy to do, because our benefits system is too generous and too easy for brits to exploit and choose not to work.

[Gareth]

for those with kids (or grandkids) old enough to vote - have you asked what they think?

If they are able to vote then why should their views be given greater value than other voters?

Our company has the opposite problem - the UK is not providing enough skilled engineers, so we have no option but to recruit from abroad.

Are you certain that your company wouldn't be able to find more engineers if it offered higher salaries? One effect of easier migration is to keep UK salaries lower.

[jont-]

for those with kids (or grandkids) old enough to vote - have you asked what they think?

If they are able to vote then why should their views be given greater value than other voters?

Because they'll have to live with the consequences of the decisions for much longer and it will have more of an effect on their lives.