All change

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jont-
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Re: All change

Postby jont- » Thu May 19, 2016 9:05 am

sussex2 wrote:Do you mean over confidence on the part of the driver, or over competent on the manufacturers side?

Over competent on the manufacturer. When I had my Elise and my brother had an Impreza, I think his words were along the lines of "a cack-handed monkey can drive the impreza fast". The corollary to that is that as a driver, the Impreza will hide your mistakes and keep you shiny side up so you don't learn - or worse still, make you think you're some sort of driving god because you don't appreciate how much the car is hiding your inadequacies. Also witness the problems when hot-hatch drivers jump in S2000s/Elises and shortly afterwards suffer car/scenery interface problems and blame "diesel" :lol:

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StressedDave
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Re: All change

Postby StressedDave » Thu May 19, 2016 9:07 am

sussex2 wrote:ps I've just read a test on the 991 models (I can't be the only person who gets confused by Porsche model numbering) and take what you wrote to be over competence on the part of the car.
I think they have to these day otherwise they'd spend half their time in various courts defending themselves...

http://content.time.com/time/specials/2 ... 33,00.html

I drove a Corvair from time to time when I visited the U.S. back then and liked the car. I never investigated the limits of its handling though :)

Its lariness is what kicked off modern understanding of vehicle handling.
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Silk
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Re: All change

Postby Silk » Thu May 19, 2016 10:14 am

StressedDave wrote:
Silk wrote:IMO, the only people who seem to want a "sportier" car are "enthusiasts" and motoring journalists (who also tend to be enthusiasts). Thanks goodness the manufacturers are starting to listen to the majority of buyers who couldn't give a flying fig about "handling" and "feedback".


They may not believe they give a flying fig about them, but they actually sell a lot of cars on the result. The original Ford Focus was a huge gamble from Ford - they hoped the customer would like a responsive car and that the extra sales generated would offset the development and manufacturing costs of the multi-link rear suspension. Surprisingly the customers preferred that level of response and bought them in bigger droves than expected.

As a trial, they did the same to the Ka (not so much the manufacturing but the tuning) and sold lots of that model. Took them a long time to kill it off...


I'm going to go out on a limb here (for a change ;-)) and suggest that the buying public are extremely gullible. A manufacturer designs a car that ticks certain boxes for the reviewers and, before you know it, everyone has to have a car that handles well, whether they understand what it means or not. For what it's worth, I think the Ford Focus is a very nice car - the current shape doesn't look as good to me as the previous one, but there you go. It's practical, comfy and easy to drive. I'm guessing that probably had just as much of an influence over how well it has sold that the fact it got good reviews because of its handling.

I think I'll leave things there as this thread seems to have drifted off in the direction of 911s and the like, and my jaw is aching from all the yawning.

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StressedDave
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Re: All change

Postby StressedDave » Thu May 19, 2016 10:30 am

Silk wrote:I'm guessing that probably had just as much of an influence over how well it has sold that the fact it got good reviews because of its handling.

I agree with you that the motoring public have absolutely no interest in handling and feedback, but a lot of sales were generated from the fact that it 'felt nicer to drive' than it's competition. I think the days of being a 'Ford' man or a 'Vauxhall' man are long gone and while looks are important, I suggest that the internal features and the feel for how it goes are fundamental to most buying decisions in the 'white goods' arena.

I'll sign off too - I'm yawning for other reasons...
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TripleS
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Re: All change

Postby TripleS » Thu May 19, 2016 3:53 pm

StressedDave wrote:
Silk wrote:I'm guessing that probably had just as much of an influence over how well it has sold that the fact it got good reviews because of its handling.

I agree with you that the motoring public have absolutely no interest in handling and feedback, but a lot of sales were generated from the fact that it 'felt nicer to drive' than it's competition. I think the days of being a 'Ford' man or a 'Vauxhall' man are long gone and while looks are important, I suggest that the internal features and the feel for how it goes are fundamental to most buying decisions in the 'white goods' arena.

I'll sign off too - I'm yawning for other reasons...


Me too, partly due to a busy day in the garden, and my spectacular failure to understand the behavioural qualities of cars. :roll:

Incidentally, I still find the 406 pleasant to drive in terms of general feel, cornering etc., and I find it comfortable to boot. So there. :P

Best wishes all,
Dave.

sussex2
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Re: All change

Postby sussex2 » Fri May 20, 2016 8:32 am

StressedDave wrote:
sussex2 wrote:ps I've just read a test on the 991 models (I can't be the only person who gets confused by Porsche model numbering) and take what you wrote to be over competence on the part of the car.
I think they have to these day otherwise they'd spend half their time in various courts defending themselves...

http://content.time.com/time/specials/2 ... 33,00.html

I drove a Corvair from time to time when I visited the U.S. back then and liked the car. I never investigated the limits of its handling though :)

Its lariness is what kicked off modern understanding of vehicle handling.


My favourite was probably a Triumph Herald on a wet Maltese road.
There's nothing soft to bump into in Malta, just great blocks of rock :)

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: All change

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri May 20, 2016 8:39 am

Same kind of rear suspension as the Corvair, of course (but I'm sure you knew that).
Nick

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StressedDave
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Re: All change

Postby StressedDave » Fri May 20, 2016 8:50 am

Nowt wrong with a swing axle, as long as you do it right. Pinzgauers do, but the cost of the differential is double normal.

Watching an air suspension one launch is somewhat enlightening.
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TripleS
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Re: All change

Postby TripleS » Fri May 20, 2016 3:55 pm

sussex2 wrote:
StressedDave wrote:
sussex2 wrote:ps I've just read a test on the 991 models (I can't be the only person who gets confused by Porsche model numbering) and take what you wrote to be over competence on the part of the car.
I think they have to these day otherwise they'd spend half their time in various courts defending themselves...

http://content.time.com/time/specials/2 ... 33,00.html

I drove a Corvair from time to time when I visited the U.S. back then and liked the car. I never investigated the limits of its handling though :)

Its lariness is what kicked off modern understanding of vehicle handling.


My favourite was probably a Triumph Herald on a wet Maltese road.
There's nothing soft to bump into in Malta, just great blocks of rock :)


Am I right in thinking that the Triumph Herald displayed, in some situations, a surprisingly large amount of positive camber at the rear wheels. I don't profess to understand these things in a proper technical sense, but it never looked right to me. A combination of rear suspension on rebound, allied to a cornering situation looked to have the potential for trouble.

Best wishes all,
Dave - confused as ever.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: All change

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri May 20, 2016 4:04 pm

Yes, it had swing axles, like the Corvair - they pivoted at the differential, so when the rear end was light, the wheels turned in at the bottom.

From the link above:

Image
Nick


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