Tesla X?

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IcedKiwi
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby IcedKiwi » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:46 pm

Here's a Ricardo study which looks at "cradle to grave" CO2 to try and capture it all. There's a link to the full report at the end for those extra keen.

http://ee.ricardo.com/cms/assets/Documents-for-Insight-pages/Transport/08.-LowCVP-conference.pdf

martine
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby martine » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:41 pm

Hey - thanks Iced.

I know it's only one report but it seems to show (if I'm reading it correctly) that pure electric cars are significantly lower for CO2 over their lifetime than petrol and in future the gap gets even wider?
Martin - Bristol Advanced Motorists: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

IcedKiwi
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby IcedKiwi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:12 am

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/wmg/research/lcvtp/presentations/lcvtp_ws7_lca_-_vehicle_co2_footprint.pdf
This was an earlier report on a different project that I was originally thinking about when I searched for it. It's a bit less detailed. But again suggest that electric vehicles are lower based on a 125k 10 year life with no major component replacements. Also like looks at different countries electricity production,in China BEVs comes out worse than conventional cars due to the high coal mix etc.
You've got to make some assumptions, is it appropriate to assume equal mileage life?

Here's another thing I found which suggests the same but is a bit more wordy
http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media/files/BatteryElectricVehicleLCA2012-rh-ptd.pdf

This one reckons there's not much in it but only looks at 120k km.
http://www.ifeu.de/verkehrundumwelt/pdf/Helms%20et%20al.%20(2010)%20Electric%20vehicles%20(TAP%20conference%20paper).pdf

I did try to find a negative one - I have seen one but can't remember who wrote it and couldn't find it in my quick google pdf search

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StressedDave
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby StressedDave » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:27 am

martine wrote:
StressedDave wrote:Personally, I'd rather burn hippies - there's probably less emissions off one of them and the smell of sandalwood and patchouli oil would make a pleasant experience as you inhale the particulates. I have no issue with electric power, merely the lack of any comprehension on the part of the fanbois who forget that the electrons they throw into it come from somewhere (and you can't paint your own electrons green to show they've come from a renewable power source) and that the range of these things is not compatible with the needs of a large chunk of users.

As for the other, I think someone is somewhat optimistic about efficiencies and the size of the various components. Frankly, you be better off investing in a family pack of baked beans and burning the methane. If you think that'll work I've probably got a Kickstarter fora perpetual motion machine you'd like to invest in.

:lol:
But does it not make sense to generate and deal with any nasty emissions in a few dozen places rather than trying to deal with in in 36m places (no. of registered vehicles in the UK). Nuclear is CO2 friendly as are so-called 'renewables'. Gas and coal power stations can be made to be a lot cleaner. Isn't is 'economies of scale' and all that?

Do you have any reliable stats to say electric cars are more polluting than petrol - overall - including the source of electric power, transmission losses, manufacturing, recycling at end of life etc? Or is it an engineer's 'suspicion'? I don't but my 'suspicion' is electric cars make sense' and you'll be aware I'm no sandal wearing, knit-my-own-muesli, greeny

As a Chartered Environmantal Manager (no sniggering at the back), the solution to pollution is dilution...36m locations of pollution spread across the Country may actually be better than (more than a) few highly polluting locations.

I will agree that EV makes far more sense in the city, save for various issues regarding the infrastructure, e.g. how can you guarantee recharging when you don't have a driveway and the LA haven't provided charging points next to the places you can park. End to end costs of EV are far worse than for ICE cars, even disregarding the short life of the battery packs. I expect second hand prices of Prius' to plummet soon when pack replacement bites.

However, the elephant in the room is where the extra electrons are going to come from. We can barely keep the lights on a lot of the time as it is, due to plants going on and offline due to repair, maintenance and decommisioning.
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Gareth
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby Gareth » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:14 am

StressedDave wrote:how can you guarantee recharging when you don't have a driveway and the LA haven't provided charging points next to the places you can park.

If the brave new world includes a charging point with every car-parking space, it'll allow warming up the interior prior to departure in winter.

FWIW I saw a number of work car-parks in Finland that had electricity outlets by each car-park space.

StressedDave wrote:the elephant in the room is where the extra electrons are going to come from.

It's a bit like the 'clever' idea of growing crops for vehicle fuel. Clearly, new is good, old is bad :roll:
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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jont-
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby jont- » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:07 am

Gareth wrote:FWIW I saw a number of work car-parks in Finland that had electricity outlets by each car-park space.

We have a few charging points in our works car park, but a friend with an Ampera tells me they are usually broken (and often parked in by non-EVs) :roll:

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StressedDave
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby StressedDave » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:09 am

Purely out of interest, I've been waving my hands vaguely in the air to come up with a few numbers...

Last year, passenger cars travelled a total of 244.5 billion vehicle miles. Now, ignoring those pesky immigrants </UKIP> who came in and then went out of the UK, having been here on holiday, that equates to 393 Tm. If we assume perfect conversion of energy and ignore any losses in the driving task and indeed assume that England is flat (I live in Cambridgeshire so this is perfectly reasonable), the energy required, assuming that the average mass of a pedestrian car is 1200kg, to travel these miles is 4.64 EJ (E is exa - 10 to the power 18). If the charging were to be spread evenly over a 24 hour day and being a non-leap year (as 2014 wasn't), then the average charging power required for all this is 146 GW.

I'm sitting in front of my PC at the moment. Gridwatch says that the peak electricity demand last week was about 50 GW. OFGEM figures are a little difficult to decipher but it looks like total generating capacity is a smidge under 75 GW. So, we'd need to triple our current generating capacity were we to go fully electric. We probably need quite a bit more to allow for demand balancing - we wouldn't be likely to be charging at an even rate over a 24 hour period - it's a bit like all the kettles going on in the ad break during Coronation Street.

Now can we stop considering that EVs are the future, at least in the long to medium term...
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akirk
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby akirk » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:31 pm

some interesting studies here:
http://www.citylab.com/weather/2015/07/ ... rs/398093/

Alasdair

Pyrolol
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby Pyrolol » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:01 pm

It feels a bit unfair to compare the Tesla Model X's environmental credentials with those of the average car, when it's really more of a Cayenne Turbo competitor.

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jont-
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Re: Tesla X?

Postby jont- » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:35 pm

Pyrolol wrote:It feels a bit unfair to compare the Tesla Model X's environmental credentials with those of the average car, when it's really more of a Cayenne Turbo competitor.

But a Cayenne Turbo doesn't let you dodge the congestion charge while being also being able to wave some faux eco-credentials in the face of the plebs :twisted:


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