Old ADUK...oh dear

[akirk]

...and what matters is how we feel and behave towards it, and indeed how members of the LGBT community behave too.

I think that what matters most is how we behave towards each other - one sign of maturity is the ability to hold different views but still respect each other a) as people and b) to respect their right to hold their own views - sadly we don't always see it in society... but we do seem to on here...

My problem with all of this is not how tolerant or otherwise we are of others but the engineering of a false tolerance by the "equality and diversity" industry. If things were allowed to follow their course naturally, we could have a bit of a laugh, get it out of our system and move on. Being forced to think a certain way just leads to resentment.

Tolerance and or respect doesn't mean agreement - and tolerance and respect is two-way, and there is a difference between respecting a person and their views... part of a free society is that I can disagree (or even stronger, not respect) someone's views - but it need not be personal, I can still respect the person... I can think of examples of people where I would really strongly disagree with their views, but still respect their integrity and honesty in holding the view consistently - even if I think them wrong!

The biggest issue we have had in society has been to conflate person and view - the two are not the same...

Alasdair

[TripleS]

Well now, as a change from the difficult subject matter with which we sometimes have to contend here, how about a little diversion?

OK, so I drilled some holes in the wall, then got cracking with the scutch comb chisel (absolutely splendid tool that) and eventually created a recess (without loosening the bricks and having the wall fall down) in which I could fit a 35 mm deep galvanised steel back box for a new 13 amp twin socket.

Now then, this forms part of a ring circuit so we have two cables (both 2.5 mm twin and earth) entering the box, so 6 wires in total. Obviously I bung the two live wires into the L terminal on the front plate, and the two neutral wires go into the N terminal on the front plate. So far so good.

Therefore I'm left with two uninsulated earth wires (one from the cable coming from the left, and one from the cable going off to the right - the next socket in the ring etc. What I've done so far is to connect the LH earth wire to the earth terminal in the back box, and the RH earth wire to the earth terminal on the back of the front plate, both of these wires having received a bit of green and yellow earth sleeving, which is wot they should 'ave.

Now this seems quite safe and decent to me, but something I've read suggests that the earth terminal on the back box should be directly connected to the earth terminal on the back of the front plate, presumably in addition to the connections I've already made, but I can't see that this would add anything useful in terms of safe earthing arrangements.

Sooo, while it might be difficult to get expert advice here on matters appertaining to driving it did occur to me that somebody might know a thing or two about domestic wiring systems etc. 'Twas just a thought.... I mean, you wouldn't want poor old Dave to be getting a nasty dose of 240V up his sleeve would you!

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

... the engineering of a false tolerance by the "equality and diversity" industry ...

This ...

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Therefore I'm left with two uninsulated earth wires (one from the cable coming from the left, and one from the cable going off to the right - the next socket in the ring etc. What I've done so far is to connect the LH earth wire to the earth terminal in the back box, and the RH earth wire to the earth terminal on the back of the front plate, both of these wires having received a bit of green and yellow earth sleeving, which is wot they should 'ave.

Now this seems quite safe and decent to me, but something I've read suggests that the earth terminal on the back box should be directly connected to the earth terminal on the back of the front plate, presumably in addition to the connections I've already made, but I can't see that this would add anything useful in terms of safe earthing arrangements.

Now you've broken the earth circuit. Somewhere in your wiring (usually from the consumer unit) the earth should go outside to an earth spike, and all internal earths should be connected to that one. What you've done by splitting the two earths in the box is that only one of them now goes to that central earth. The suggestion you read was for a reason ... it's not called a "ring main" for nothing!

(actually reading that back it's not quite right. Both should find their way to earth, but each can only go one way round the ring).

[TripleS]

Therefore I'm left with two uninsulated earth wires (one from the cable coming from the left, and one from the cable going off to the right - the next socket in the ring etc. What I've done so far is to connect the LH earth wire to the earth terminal in the back box, and the RH earth wire to the earth terminal on the back of the front plate, both of these wires having received a bit of green and yellow earth sleeving, which is wot they should 'ave.

Now this seems quite safe and decent to me, but something I've read suggests that the earth terminal on the back box should be directly connected to the earth terminal on the back of the front plate, presumably in addition to the connections I've already made, but I can't see that this would add anything useful in terms of safe earthing arrangements.

Now you've broken the earth circuit. Somewhere in your wiring (usually from the consumer unit) the earth should go outside to an earth spike, and all internal earths should be connected to that one. What you've done by splitting the two earths in the box is that only one of them now goes to that central earth. The suggestion you read was for a reason ... it's not called a "ring main" for nothing!

OK, Nick, thank you for that. Actually, I'm told we're not supposed to call it a ring main - though I know most people do. It's supposed to be referred to as a ring circuit. Anyhow that's nitpicking.

I will look into this a bit more in view of what you say, but in fact there is earth continuity from the back box to the front plate via the front plate fixing screws, which have metal ringed holes linking them to a continuous earth 'strap' across the unit on the inside, which is permanently connected to the front plate earth terminal. At least this looks to me like earth continuity, but maybe as far as the regulations are concerned it doesn't count as such.

The plot, as they say, thickens.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

You could have done it by now, but if you want to keep looking for reasons to talk yourself out of it, I won't stop you

[WhoseGeneration]

Alasdair, you might need to consider adding some conditions to the posting terms.
Forums I'm on where safety critical stuff is discussed, will require that a poster is qualified to post. Electrical installations are one such example.
With regard to TripleS's problem, I could comment but I'm not officially qualified so can't.
Plus, Mr C-W is describing but one, rarely used these days, system of earthing, so, from afar, it's best not to comment and TripleS would be best to consult an electrician.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Hands up, I admit it. Dave, if you die, I'm not responsible

(to be fair, I'm encouraging him to have more earthing rather than less, but I take the point).

[TheInsanity1234]

All I wanted was to point out that in the modern day, jokes like that were brushing on the border of offensiveness. The problem really is that everybody would react differently to that kind of joke.

I have a few transgender friends, and a couple would've just found it amusing, but the others would've been a bit offended by it, so all I wanted to do was just make it clear that you now have to be careful.

... the engineering of a false tolerance by the "equality and diversity" industry ...

This ...

Well, that's funny. I've never had any issues with being tolerant of people, and treating them as equals. I mean, it's proved massively by how tolerant I am of Silk...

Anyway, I just wanted to get my final thoughts in, this post is not intended to be opening the matter up for further debate.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Anyway, I just wanted to have the last word, this post is not intended to be opening the matter up for further debate.

FTFY