Dangerous safety system?

Technology in driving is becoming more dominant...
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jont-
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby jont- » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:37 pm

Strangely Brown wrote: How would you feel if you could see an overtake developing and were closing up to a contact position prior to moving out when the car in front braked full on, for no reason? Wouldn't you feel aggrieved?

Go "thank you very much" and take the overtake? :twisted:

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:07 pm

jont- wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote: How would you feel if you could see an overtake developing and were closing up to a contact position prior to moving out when the car in front braked full on, for no reason? Wouldn't you feel aggrieved?

Go "thank you very much" and take the overtake? :twisted:


Now that's more like it. :D

mainbeam
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby mainbeam » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:21 pm

If you stop suddenly for no good reason where there is following traffic that is likely to be negligent even if the following traffic is driving too close to also be able to stop safely.

Matt1962
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby Matt1962 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:01 pm

mainbeam wrote:If you stop suddenly for no good reason where there is following traffic that is likely to be negligent even if the following traffic is driving too close to also be able to stop safely.


That would also be my view. So, going back to the original topic, could the car manufacturer be guilty of an offence (or responsible for any damage caused) in this type of situation?

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akirk
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby akirk » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:35 pm

Matt1962 wrote:
mainbeam wrote:If you stop suddenly for no good reason where there is following traffic that is likely to be negligent even if the following traffic is driving too close to also be able to stop safely.


That would also be my view. So, going back to the original topic, could the car manufacturer be guilty of an offence (or responsible for any damage caused) in this type of situation?


no, because you as driver are responsible for how the car behaves under your control, your job to know how the system will operate, and to anticipate etc.

and they have bigger lawyers than you do :)

Alasdair

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby Strangely Brown » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:17 am

akirk wrote:you as driver are responsible for how the car behaves under your control, your job to know how the system will operate, and to anticipate etc.


Really? How much control do you think you'll have over a [semi-]autonomous car that is "under your control"? Do you really expect manufacturers to provide details of their algorithms so that it would be possible for you to "know how the system operates"?

I think that is rather the point of this discussion. Manufacturers are taking more and more decisions away from the driver so at what point does the liability fall to the manufacturer of the "safety" system rather than the driver?

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akirk
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby akirk » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:03 am

Strangely Brown wrote:
akirk wrote:you as driver are responsible for how the car behaves under your control, your job to know how the system will operate, and to anticipate etc.


Really? How much control do you think you'll have over a [semi-]autonomous car that is "under your control"? Do you really expect manufacturers to provide details of their algorithms so that it would be possible for you to "know how the system operates"?

I think that is rather the point of this discussion. Manufacturers are taking more and more decisions away from the driver so at what point does the liability fall to the manufacturer of the "safety" system rather than the driver?


I would expect the manufacturer to detail in the manual how their systems work - and for the driver to read the manual! :D (not likely I know!!!)
At this stage with cars they are not really autonomous it is a set of very simple logic systems and it is up tot the driver to understand them and drive accordingly - or turn them off, or choose to buy a car without them...

we do live in a society where people love to find someone else responsible for their mistakes, but I think that a part of AD is the notion that we drive in a more aware / more deliberate / more controlled fashion, so if that is a car with systems like this, then I think that we do need to understand them and drive accordingly...

Alasdair

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Horse
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby Horse » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:31 am

akirk wrote: we do live in a society where people love to find someone else responsible for their mistakes


Ah yes, 'external/internal locus of control'


Without internal LOC . . .

akirk wrote: a part of AD is the notion that we drive in a more aware / more deliberate / more controlled fashion,


Which makes the 'overtaking' example posted earlier interesting :)
My own views. For better or worse :)

waremark
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby waremark » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:15 am

akirk wrote:I would expect the manufacturer to detail in the manual how their systems work

Is that expect in the literal sense of the word, or in what would happen in a fantasy utopian world? Manuals dont normally explain fairly simple systems on cars, let alone the complex algorithms at play in autonomous driving.

There are large numbers of cars on the road now with auto braking features - it is standard on many. I drive one myself, but have never experienced it. This is the first time I have heard a report of the auto-braking activating when it shouldn't have. On the other hand I have heard a couple of first hand accounts of it operating entirely appropriately to prevent a potential collision. I do not switch the system off. I am not sure if it would be responsible to do so.

Has anybody else heard of cars braking for no reason? (Braking, not just buzzing.)

If I owned the car in the OP I would want it checked very carefully.

Matt1962
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Re: Dangerous safety system?

Postby Matt1962 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:24 am

akirk wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:
akirk wrote:you as driver are responsible for how the car behaves under your control, your job to know how the system will operate, and to anticipate etc.


Really? How much control do you think you'll have over a [semi-]autonomous car that is "under your control"? Do you really expect manufacturers to provide details of their algorithms so that it would be possible for you to "know how the system operates"?

I think that is rather the point of this discussion. Manufacturers are taking more and more decisions away from the driver so at what point does the liability fall to the manufacturer of the "safety" system rather than the driver?


I would expect the manufacturer to detail in the manual how their systems work - and for the driver to read the manual! :D (not likely I know!!!)
At this stage with cars they are not really autonomous it is a set of very simple logic systems and it is up tot the driver to understand them and drive accordingly - or turn them off, or choose to buy a car without them...

we do live in a society where people love to find someone else responsible for their mistakes, but I think that a part of AD is the notion that we drive in a more aware / more deliberate / more controlled fashion, so if that is a car with systems like this, then I think that we do need to understand them and drive accordingly...

Alasdair


I don't agree with some of that.....
'Driving accordingly' in the real example here would mean making sure that your speed was always either above 28mph (45Km/h is the point at which the unwarned autonomous braking switches off) OR low enough to mean that no one is EVER going to drive into the back of you if you come to an abrupt halt for no reason. I don't think this is possible (and there would always be a transition period anyway).
The incident I mentioned originally, happened at around 20mph and was violent enough for the drawers to shoot out from under the front seats etc. I would hope that as an 'advanced driver' I would not have run into the back of a car that did the same thing, but I am not completely convinced :|. Turning the system off might seem like the correct AD solution, but I suspect this might have its own unwelcome implications with regard to insurance etc. (maybe another topic?).
I'm with Strangely Brown on this one. If the incident I described had led to a rear end collision, the major fault would have been with my car. As the driver I would have been blameless and the driver of the car behind would have been maybe 25% responsible. Is this different from the car having been supplied with a mechanical fault that causes an accident?


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