Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Technology in driving is becoming more dominant...
ancient
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby ancient » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:29 pm

akirk wrote:
ancient wrote:We know how fast pedestrians can move sideways (it's not an infinite speed) and have automatic cars moderate their speed when passing humans at that distance, such that any impact will not do significant harm (another calculable limit that we can stay well below). This is likely to mean that vehicles will move at walking speed in close proximity to pedestrians (which is no bad thing) and be able to speed up when their trajectory puts them at significant distance from pedestrians.
Just like good human drivers of course, who slow down when passing through a crowded shopping street and speed up on motorways.


awesome - so pedestrians will just walk across the road whenever they like, knowing that cars will stop - at present there is a balance - pedestrians take care and look etc. as they can't guarantee that the cars will stop - knowing that the cars will stop will change pedestrian habits, maybe over time, but it will happen...

Alasdair

I suspect it will discourage car use where walking or wheelchairing is more appropriate, leaving cars as the choice for when an open road can be found.

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Horse
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:42 pm

akirk wrote:
ancient wrote:We know how fast pedestrians can move sideways (it's not an infinite speed) and have automatic cars moderate their speed when passing humans at that distance, such that any impact will not do significant harm (another calculable limit that we can stay well below). This is likely to mean that vehicles will move at walking speed in close proximity to pedestrians (which is no bad thing) and be able to speed up when their trajectory puts them at significant distance from pedestrians.
Just like good human drivers of course, who slow down when passing through a crowded shopping street and speed up on motorways.


awesome - so pedestrians will just walk across the road whenever they like, knowing that cars will stop - at present there is a balance - pedestrians take care and look etc. as they can't guarantee that the cars will stop - knowing that the cars will stop will change pedestrian habits, maybe over time, but it will happen...


As I've posted before: I've seen videos of pedestrians deliberately and knowingly walk in front of an autonomous vehicle . . .

Here's some stooged encounters:

My own views. For better or worse :)

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jont-
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby jont- » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:56 pm

Horse wrote:As I've posted before: I've seen videos of pedestrians deliberately and knowingly walk in front of an autonomous vehicle . . .

:lol: at 5mph. Would almost be quicker just to walk.

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:52 pm

akirk wrote:awesome - so pedestrians will just walk across the road whenever they like, knowing that cars will stop - at present there is a balance - pedestrians take care and look etc. as they can't guarantee that the cars will stop - knowing that the cars will stop will change pedestrian habits, maybe over time, but it will happen...


You think so? If the "youth of today" that I have encountered recently are any barometer then we are well on the way to exactly the scenario described.

I was approaching a zebra yesterday evening and there were two lads, probably around 15 years old, walking along the pavement. They gave every impression that they were going to continue along the pavement past the crossing. However, as they reached the crossing they just slewed left and straight out onto it without looking in any direction left or right at all. I stopped. Just. It was a very rapid stop but not full-on emergency. The glare that I got from the pair of them could have killed at 100 paces and they never so much as broke stride as they continued across.

The sense of self-importance and entitlement was palpable and I see it from their generation everywhere. They may even be right in that they had priority on the crossing but when the car is so close before stepping out you would think that a bit of self preservation might take over? Nah! It's all very well being right, but not much use if you're dead.

Autonomous vehicles will quickly become the punching bags of the road as people take advantage of them at junctions, in lane changes, when crossing the road, in fact practically any situation where today there is courtesy and accommodation.

They call this progress.

fungus
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby fungus » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:
akirk wrote:awesome - so pedestrians will just walk across the road whenever they like, knowing that cars will stop - at present there is a balance - pedestrians take care and look etc. as they can't guarantee that the cars will stop - knowing that the cars will stop will change pedestrian habits, maybe over time, but it will happen...


You think so? If the "youth of today" that I have encountered recently are any barometer then we are well on the way to exactly the scenario described.

I was approaching a zebra yesterday evening and there were two lads, probably around 15 years old, walking along the pavement. They gave every impression that they were going to continue along the pavement past the crossing. However, as they reached the crossing they just slewed left and straight out onto it without looking in any direction left or right at all. I stopped. Just. It was a very rapid stop but not full-on emergency. The glare that I got from the pair of them could have killed at 100 paces and they never so much as broke stride as they continued across.

The sense of self-importance and entitlement was palpable and I see it from their generation everywhere. They may even be right in that they had priority on the crossing but when the car is so close before stepping out you would think that a bit of self preservation might take over? Nah! It's all very well being right, but not much use if you're dead.

Autonomous vehicles will quickly become the punching bags of the road as people take advantage of them at junctions, in lane changes, when crossing the road, in fact practically any situation where today there is courtesy and accommodation.

They call this progress.


+1

The problem is the Blame Culture that's so prevelent these days.

May be it's an age thing, but my wife and I always look to see if it's possible for a vehicle to stop reasonably, and then make sure that the driver is going to stop. Also drivers approaching in the opposite direction. Then if safe we will cross. It's commonplace to see one driver stop but the oncoming driver makes no attempt, and drives on over the crossing, even though they could easily, and safely stop. Similarly at a light contolled crossing, many pedestrians don't check to see if vehicles have stopped. They just step out when the green man shows. I presume they drive the same way, green means go whatever. :roll:

Nigel.

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Horse
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:31 pm

jont- wrote:
Horse wrote:As I've posted before: I've seen videos of pedestrians deliberately and knowingly walk in front of an autonomous vehicle . . .

:lol: at 5mph. Would almost be quicker just to walk.


So let's be clear; you would commit to a situation where pedestrians could walk into the road, driving at a speed at which you know you couldn't stop? Is that really what you're saying, because criticising the AV for taking a safety first approach seems, well, odd, and at odds with your 'straw man'' complaint earlier.
My own views. For better or worse :)

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jont-
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby jont- » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:24 pm

Horse wrote:
jont- wrote:
Horse wrote:As I've posted before: I've seen videos of pedestrians deliberately and knowingly walk in front of an autonomous vehicle . . .

:lol: at 5mph. Would almost be quicker just to walk.


So let's be clear; you would commit to a situation where pedestrians could walk into the road, driving at a speed at which you know you couldn't stop? Is that really what you're saying, because criticising the AV for taking a safety first approach seems, well, odd, and at odds with your 'straw man'' complaint earlier.

No, I'm saying that it never seems to get above 5 mph. Show it detecting pedestrians at 30mph and slowing down to an appropriate speed and it starts to look more interesting.

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Horse
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:26 pm

OK, see what you mean - but it's worth noting that those [prototype] vehicles are operating in the vicinity of pedestrians, that's the Milton Keynes trials. In similar circumstances wouldn't a competent driver do the same?

[The video clips I saw were of an AV running on the Greenwich peninsula, in a similar environment - effectively running on a cycle path alongside a footpath]

I doubt that the AVs running on higher speed roads will be traveling at 5mph, just in case.
My own views. For better or worse :)

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TR4ffic
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby TR4ffic » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:04 pm

jont- wrote:Straw man argument. If an autonomous car is making decisions about harming humans, it's doing it wrong. Surely that was the whole point of introducing them in the first place?

It shouldn't be too difficult to think up a scenario for an impending collision where the autonomous car you are travelling in will sacrifice your life (or at least seriously injure you) rather than taking evasive action that would/could maim or kill others... Does the car's decision change if you have 2 or 3 passengers in the car with you?

ancient
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Re: Safety systems are there to be gamed...

Postby ancient » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:57 pm

TR4ffic wrote:It shouldn't be too difficult to think up a scenario for an impending collision where the autonomous car you are travelling in will sacrifice your life (or at least seriously injure you) rather than taking evasive action that would/could maim or kill others.

Can you come up with one?


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