Dead steering: no feedback

Technology in driving is becoming more dominant...
sussex2
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby sussex2 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:00 am

WhoseGeneration wrote:Want that purity of feel?
Go classic. 'Cos I'm old I can remember Classic Minis, Imps, Spitfires.
All of which I had and all were driven flat out.
Flat out that would probably be a problem today.
It's all gone wrong.


Flat out at 70 in an Anglia - scary stuff, it was, really :o

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StressedDave
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby StressedDave » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:05 am

Imsensible wrote:Unfortunately, I don't live in the Netherlands

There are a few here who no doubt think that unfortunate too... :facepalm:
Imsensible wrote:Not to mention the effects of weight on handling and wear and tear on brakes and tyres etc. And at higher speeds, power steering isn't necessary anyway.

No effect on handling - it's a choice of the manufacturer to set the 'level' of handling you get. Similarly tyres have been increased in size and capacity to deal with the extra weight and brake pad materials have moved on a lot since we had lieghtweight cars.
All posts are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License. Do what you like with it, just don't make money off it.

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ChristianAB
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby ChristianAB » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:05 am

StressedDave wrote:Because the weight of a car has next to no effect on fuel consumption on the flat. You've only got rolling resistance (Which is about 0.01 times the vehicle weight) and aerodynamic resistance (A function of forward speed squared) to deal with above and beyond the various frictional bits to do with gearboxes, wheel bearings etc.

Needing a chunk of power to permanently drive a hydraulic pump and thus wasting fuel all the time is inferior to running an electric motor as and when the steering is turned.

You can't have unassisted steering these days. In the quest for stability, much larger castor angles are being used. When you turn the wheel, you're lifting the front end of the car upwards (can't be asked to do a diagram). The heavier the car and the greater the castor angle, the harder it is to lift that weight. There's a maximum force at the wheel, but you'd need to use the power muscles to turn it and any real chance for lovely, lovely feedback is lost.

Outside of very lightweight cars, you are not going to get unassisted steering


I drove my mum's old 406 when I was 17. It had no power-steering and it was far from being a light car. Yes, the steering was heavy at very low speed, but you soon built up the muscles to deal with it. I mean,..., my mum did it all day everyday and she has never seen a gym.
So that idea that only lightweight cars can get unassisted steering feels like an excuse for lazy and/or unfit drivers. Yes, it wouldn't be adequate for most cars today but come on!

Gareth
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby Gareth » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:19 am

406 appears to have had PAS as standard across the range. PAS was included on higher spec 405 models.

ChristianAB wrote:that idea that only lightweight cars can get unassisted steering feels like an excuse for lazy and/or unfit drivers. Yes, it wouldn't be adequate for most cars today but come on!

Power steering is a boon to modern drivers who want to be able to dry steer.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

Astraist
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby Astraist » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:08 pm

Imsensible wrote:Thanks for the advice, but I have owned two cars with no power steering, several with hydraulic and several with electric power steering. I am more than happy to trade a bit of extra effort to feel what is going on at the wheel.


I had power-assisted cars whose steering I consider superior to some none-assisted cars that I had. Not only can the steering on a none-assisted vehicle be very straining to operate (to the point of completly offsetting the advantage) but the ratio is slower so turning the wheel just goes on and on and on...

I am looking for something of a Pareto Efficiency where any additional effort into steering would be above what is conductive for feel, consistently thoughout the entire journey.

Are all steering systems at that equilibrium? No, but I think they get quite close, and I do like them on the "not straining" part of the equation rather than at the "good feel for fifteen minutes before wearing out".

I do find that all the feedback that you really need on the road is there, if you don't have grip tension in your forearms. I do a lot of work getting people not to do it, not just when holding the wheel in place but mainly while turning it. The difference can be huge. Just listen to Delis.

TheInsanity1234
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:23 pm

I probably wouldn't know what feedback is, even if it bit me in the arse.

But I do know I appreciate how nice power assisted steering is, and I know for sure I would be going mad if I had to try and drive the Yeti without power assisted steering.

Hell, after having become used to the Citigo's steering, the Yeti's steering feels insanely heavy, as does the gear change action.

I'm perfectly happy with my power assisted steering and I'm not willing to give that up!

Astraist
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby Astraist » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 pm

Steering feedback is a word for several sensations one can recieve through the steering wheel. You'd want the steering to kick-back just a tad over undulations so you know they are there. You'd probably want near to nothing of that upon applying torque.

But the main steering feedback is vibration and ressistance of the wheel to be turned. As you turn harder and harder, the force that tries to bring the wheel back to straight increases. When you get closer to the limit it starts dropping down, so you know you're close.

What follows is the best on-tape explaination of that feedback and it's significance, inaccurate as it might be (on purpose) as far as the physics go:



Elsewhere, Ed brings the point of a signal-to-noise ratio between the tension in the forearm as you use them to clamp the wheel harder, so you don't feel the feedback as much.

If the steering is really very heavy, you'd get lots of such noise and you'd also wear down, which hurts your sensitivity further. So coaches like Ed and like myself try to get people to relax the tension (while still keeping a good grip on the wheel itself), so they feel better the signal.

With that being said, there is a point below which more effort means more resolution in the feedback - many modern steering system are too far below that point, because they have to accomodate a wide range of drivers, some (most) of which might not be positioned close enough to the wheel to exert enough force on it.

TheInsanity1234
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:09 am

Ooh, so actually, I knew what feedback was, I just didn't know the name for it! Experience of go karting helps in that area.

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ChristianAB
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby ChristianAB » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:53 am

Gareth wrote:406 appears to have had PAS as standard across the range. PAS was included on higher spec 405 models.

ChristianAB wrote:that idea that only lightweight cars can get unassisted steering feels like an excuse for lazy and/or unfit drivers. Yes, it wouldn't be adequate for most cars today but come on!

Power steering is a boon to modern drivers who want to be able to dry steer.


My mistake, it was a 405. Although, back then in Cameroon, who knew what was really under the bonnet...

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ChristianAB
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Re: Dead steering: no feedback

Postby ChristianAB » Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:01 pm

Astraist wrote:many modern steering system are too far below that point, because they have to accomodate a wide range of drivers, some (most) of which might not be positioned close enough to the wheel to exert enough force on it.


How easy would it be for cars to have steering set-up that can be modulated, at the push of a button, to suit a wider range of preferences? I need to research the topic more, especially on hydraulics vs electric trade-offs, but it strikes me as odd that if a 120Kg rugbyman and his 55Kg sister drive the same car, they should somehow find a way to be happy with the same controls.


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