How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Technology in driving is becoming more dominant...
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jont-
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby jont- » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:17 am

waremark wrote:I agree - dumb and disappointing, I am not about to buy a 911, but if I was thinking about it this would discourage me. I remember long ago asking John Lyon why people liked the first generation of harsh and slow paddle shifts, and he said that you have to remember that most people don't know how to change gear. You would have thought that if any manufacturer was going to make cars for those who do know how to change gear it would be Porsche, but it seems even they limit the option to do it yourself to the few who can get their hands on limited production models like the GT4, and probably the forthcoming 911R.

I had a passenger ride on circuit in a 911 with PDK recently. I was surprised and disappointed that in sport mode, gear changes were horribly lumpy and aggressive (you could feel a big "thump" as it went from one gear to the next). I'm sure the engineers designing the system could have made it perfectly smooth, but someone in marketing said that drivers want it to feel "sporty" [which equates to feeling "something" rather than nothing], in much the same way as they have destroyed ride quality by fitting ever larger wheels :evil:

waremark
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby waremark » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:14 am

jont- wrote:
waremark wrote:I had a passenger ride on circuit in a 911 with PDK recently. I was surprised and disappointed that in sport mode, gear changes were horribly lumpy and aggressive (you could feel a big "thump" as it went from one gear to the next). I'm sure the engineers designing the system could have made it perfectly smooth, but someone in marketing said that drivers want it to feel "sporty" [which equates to feeling "something" rather than nothing], in much the same way as they have destroyed ride quality by fitting ever larger wheels :evil:

Yes. When I had an M3 with the equivalent DCT gearbox I ran acceleration times using a V Box. Astonishingly, it was quicker when running in smooth mode than in the very jerky maximum sporty mode. I always used the smooth mode (in that car you can set up your own preferred combination of chassis, gearbox and other settings).

BTW, at the track day in question I could not quite keep up with that particular 911 despite having an extra 130 bhp. Mostly down to driver skill, but the speed of gearchanges by the PDK box may have played a part.

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EasyShifter
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby EasyShifter » Thu May 26, 2016 5:35 am

On the subject of gear-shift indicators, I really hardly refer to mine, now. My car's an Audi and it seems very clear to me that the system's set primarily for economy. Following the recommendations gets me into too high gear too soon under general conditions, so the car doesn't feel stable as it's almost coasting along rather than being driven under power, and then has virtually no engine braking so slowing down, even for a temporary obstruction, means bringing in the brakes when it shouldn't be necessary. I've learnt from experience of this particular car that the best control comes with the engine running at about 2,000 rpm which gives me a good throttle response with also a good margin before I need to change up if accelerating. The road speed is controlled principally by throttle pressure and the car feels lovely and stable in the bends because it's actually going round under appropriate power. And that's the critical point, I think - the gear-shift indicator shows the same whether I'm cruising gently on an open motorway or driving for enjoyment on a bendy road. Only I actually have that particular bit of information, so only I can decide when to change. Based just on my experience of this car i suspect that the shift indicator is designed with the official consumption figures in mind.
Michael

IcedKiwi
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby IcedKiwi » Thu May 26, 2016 8:49 am

It's not just your car - It's all manuals with gear-shift indicators that are designed with the official fuel consumption test in mind. It's basically a loophole. Without them the vehicle operator has to shift at predefined points on the test cycle,which haven't changed for at least 20 years and means the engine would run up >2000rpm etc. On vehicles fitted with the gear-shift indicators the operator can ignore the official shift points and change gear as per the display, allowing the manufacturers to keep engine speeds lower and get better fuel consumption results.
I ignore them too

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Thu May 26, 2016 9:20 am

jont- wrote:
waremark wrote:I agree - dumb and disappointing, I am not about to buy a 911, but if I was thinking about it this would discourage me. I remember long ago asking John Lyon why people liked the first generation of harsh and slow paddle shifts, and he said that you have to remember that most people don't know how to change gear. You would have thought that if any manufacturer was going to make cars for those who do know how to change gear it would be Porsche, but it seems even they limit the option to do it yourself to the few who can get their hands on limited production models like the GT4, and probably the forthcoming 911R.

I had a passenger ride on circuit in a 911 with PDK recently. I was surprised and disappointed that in sport mode, gear changes were horribly lumpy and aggressive (you could feel a big "thump" as it went from one gear to the next). I'm sure the engineers designing the system could have made it perfectly smooth, but someone in marketing said that drivers want it to feel "sporty" [which equates to feeling "something" rather than nothing], in much the same way as they have destroyed ride quality by fitting ever larger wheels :evil:

Allegedly (and I doubt if I'll ever have the chance to find out), Ferrari 'boxes in Sport Mode are even worse!
Nick

Gareth
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby Gareth » Thu May 26, 2016 10:05 am

IcedKiwi wrote:On vehicles fitted with the gear-shift indicators the operator can ignore the official shift points and change gear as per the display, allowing the manufacturers to keep engine speeds lower and get better fuel consumption results.

I've driven a few small VAG cars with shift indicators and been interested to find that
  • it's most economical when the engine is going slow enough to make a noticeable (and unwelcome) amount of vibration,
  • the shift indicators don't suggest upshifts with firm or no throttle, (although the amount of positive throttle required seems to vary in some relationship with engine and/or road speed).
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby GTR1400MAN » Thu May 26, 2016 1:24 pm

My daughter's Toyota IQ want's you in 5th just before 30mp (if you drive with a sensitive foot). Then we wonder why everyone drives pressing either the accelerator or brake, like one has to be in use at all times! :(
Mike Roberts

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Thu May 26, 2016 2:48 pm

My new Skoda seems to think the ideal engine speed (admittedly it's a diesel) is about 1150 rpm. The engine doesn't feel happy at that speed, and, of course, there's little to no acceleration available, so I'm learning to ignore the shift indicator too. But it keeps nagging ...! :(
Nick

chriskay
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby chriskay » Thu May 26, 2016 3:29 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote: so I'm learning to ignore the shift indicator too. But it keeps nagging ...! :(


So put a bit of black tape over it. ;)
Last edited by Mr Cholmondeley-Warner on Thu May 26, 2016 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix quote markers
Carpe diem

Imsensible
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Re: How does advanced driving deal with a modern manual gearbox

Postby Imsensible » Thu May 26, 2016 3:32 pm

Some electrical insulation tape in the right spot would probably cover that up nicely. A very hi-tech solution. I'll patent that sell it to those gullible Seat Octopus owners ;)

OK, chriskay, that's my idea... patent pending! :D


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