M1 Minibus "Accident"

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Horse
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:22 pm

waremark wrote:
Horse wrote:Methodology won't make any difference to substantially reduced sound quality and inevitable


delay.

Huh? Get a different system.


Do you honestly believe that the sound transmission time would be exactly the same for talking to the person next to you and talking to them on a mobile phone?

A quick Google gives:

Modern cell phones use packetized data. This implies a small but unavoidable latency in the audio. Add to this the delays in every step along the way - digitizing, compression, transmission, routing, reception, decompression, buffering, D/A and you end up with a delay of around 1/3 of a second or so
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb
See post #15 for a very long answer

Interestingly, well I thought so, another page about how delays in conversations affect our thoughts about the person we are talking with:
https://theconversation.com/amp/awkward-pauses
My own views. For better or worse :)

sussex2
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby sussex2 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:16 am

https://theconversation.com/amp/awkward-pauses '

I wonder if it is these pauses, the thoughts about what the other person is doing/thinking or even where they are, add to any distraction. I can't see they don't.

Gareth
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Gareth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:54 am

Horse wrote:Do you honestly believe that the sound transmission time would be exactly the same for talking to the person next to you and talking to them on a mobile phone?

Do you honestly believe this makes a difference? Thinking time dwarfs transmission latency.

As end-to-end latency increases, two-way audio in phone calls begins more and more to resemble single-alternate two-way radio. In general, this is how people converse when one or both are in a noisy environment and, anyway, we (humans) mostly use 'two-way' audio to grunt or to try to interrupt; it's not as if there is a huge information exchange in both directions simultaneously.

The bigger issue with mobile phones is feedback latency; in a phone situation, as opposed to hands-free, audio from the microphone is fed back to the ear-piece; if that is significantly delayed it mucks up the ability of people to speak. This has absolutely nothing to do with end-to-end latency, though.

As I mentioned previously, the bigger issue is degrees of abstraction and, in general, it is clear, those with greater processing capacity are better able to handle communication with disembodied voices. Given a range in the human condition, it is ill advised for any of us to project our capabilities, experiences, and limitations onto others.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Horse
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:25 am

Yes, I do. We regularly use conference calls at work, but even landline calls on speakerphone (sometimes where the other party is using a mobile) make conversation far harder than face to face.

Watermark mentions pilot radio use. I'd guess, from limited experience of a handful of flights, that this is far more formulaic than 'normal' telephone calls, whether business or pleasure, with both parties being able to have a fair expectation of what the other will say and expect to hear - and a clear use of alternating speech rather than sometimes speaking together as happens with phone calls.

Apologies for the localised shortage of full stops as apparent in the previous paragraph.
My own views. For better or worse :)

waremark
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby waremark » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:31 am

'Watermark mentions '

I like the new name bestowed by autocorrect.

My point about aeronautical radio was how distracting it is due to frequent retuning, poor sound quality and technical content.

I used my phone in the car yesterday (hands free of course) for three long calls. On two of them the reception seemed perfectly clear and not a distraction. On the third I found it difficult to hear the other party. When I persuaded him to pick up his phone and speak into it the problem went away so was clearly not due to the reception or hands free installation. While I accept the technical explanation for some latency, it is too short to be noticeable.

It is not fair to compare hands free conversation with face to face conversation. The fair comparison is with talking to passengers while looking at the road. And if the passengers are in the back seat it is often more difficult to hear them than the phone..

Of course any conversation is distracting. While not on the phone, for much of the time I listened to talk radio.That feels similarly distracting.

In spite of the distraction, as an experienced IAM Observer I am reasonably confident that I maintained a good 'advanced' standard of driving throughout my conversations. Which is certainly not to claim that I always do, only to claim that hands free conversation is not unduly or at all more distracting than in car conversation. For me.

I could not possibly text when driving. My son was involved in filming a piece intended to demonstrate the dangers of texting and driving. Two of them did driving exercises on a proving ground texting to one another. He said they found it completely easy (to the amazement of the older generation event organisers) and had to simulate difficulty and hitting cones etc.

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Horse
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:23 am

Apologies - this new phone catches me out every time I forget to chicken ;)
My own views. For better or worse :)

waremark
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby waremark » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:05 pm

Horse wrote:Apologies - this new phone catches me out every time I forget to chicken ;)

But does it work well with your car to give good hands free?

Gareth
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Gareth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:47 pm

Horse wrote:Yes, I do. We regularly use conference calls at work, but even landline calls on speakerphone (sometimes where the other party is using a mobile) make conversation far harder than face to face.

Landline speaker-phones are the devil's spawn and should have been strangled at birth; they make normal telephone communication impossible all too often.

My experience has been hands-free mobile to normal landline phone is often remarkably good; sometimes my interlocutor hasn't even realised I'm using a mobile phone. I really liked a HBH GV435a until wore it out, and the replacement Plantronics Voyager Pro HD is almost as good in some aspects, better in others. Of course poorer equipment may give poorer results.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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jont-
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby jont- » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:50 pm

Gareth wrote:Landline speaker-phones are the devil's spawn and should have been strangled at birth; they make normal telephone communication impossible all too often.

.
And that's an optimistic rendition. This week I've had several calls where it's taken 15 or 20 minutes to get /something/ working.

TheInsanity1234
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:51 pm

waremark wrote:I could not possibly text when driving. My son was involved in filming a piece intended to demonstrate the dangers of texting and driving. Two of them did driving exercises on a proving ground texting to one another. He said they found it completely easy (to the amazement of the older generation event organisers) and had to simulate difficulty and hitting cones etc.

Speaking as a member of the younger generation, I don't have a sodding clue how they can consider it easy to text while driving.

I can text without looking at my phone, but often what comes out is semi-legible gibberish. For instance:
"Hello goe are you? Are we goung to go ahrsd eithvthe pland firvthus ecebing?"
^ an attempt at typing one handed on my phone without looking at it.
(Translation: "Hello how are you? Are we going to go ahead with the plans for this evening?")

And texting while driving isn't too difficult, but reading the texts recieved from others while driving? I don't know how that's doable without taking your eyes off the road for long periods of time. I suspect those young people are just not understanding how much you can miss just by looking down for a second or two.

I do put my hands up and admit to using my phone while stationary at traffic lights or when stuck in traffic jams, but I've always tried to avoid having my phone in my hand when I'm actually on the move. I will geniunely throw my phone on to the passenger seat halfway through a text if I find I need to start driving, and then complete it when I next become stationary.


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