M1 Minibus "Accident"

Articles of interest to the AD community, currently in the news.
Pontoneer
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:48 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Pontoneer » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:43 pm

Gareth wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:
Gareth wrote:Do police officers ever use mobile phones while they are driving?


Argumentum ad verecundiam, and a weak one at that. In particular, congitive bias.

To answer the question: they probably do. And it would make them wrong too.

Nice of you to throw some words around, I was actually curious. Have seen US police officers using mobile phones while driving, Australians also, I think, but wasn't sure what happens in the UK. Many of the fly-on-the-wall programs show two up, although sometimes carrying a mobile phone in addition to one or more two way radios, but I know police officers are not always two up..

Here in Scotland, dual crewing is normal because of the different legal system . Comms should always be handled by the passenger .
The Airwave sets can function either as two way radios , with PTT , or as mobile phones .

User avatar
akirk
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:58 pm
Location: Cotswolds

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby akirk » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:39 am

Pontoneer wrote:Oh , and if stopped at lights , or in a traffic jam , turn off your engine and you’re no longer ‘driving’ , therefore no offence in using a handheld device , but it is still best avoided . Still shows , though , that many don’t know the law .


I wouldn't do this - the police will still consider you to be driving...
what is the difference between your turning off the engine and a car with start / stop technology?

If you are in control of the car, then you can be considered to be 'driving' - whether that is logical or not is another matter... when you consider that someone was prosecuted for drink-driving in Scotland when they were sleeping in their camper van in a layby before catching a ferry - they had a drink the night before, but because they were in their vehicle and with the keys, they were considered to be in control of a motor vehicle and therefore in breach of the law.

simplest approach is simply not to use a phone other than through a hands-free setup.

Alasdair

Pontoneer
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:48 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Pontoneer » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:10 am

akirk wrote:
Pontoneer wrote:Oh , and if stopped at lights , or in a traffic jam , turn off your engine and you’re no longer ‘driving’ , therefore no offence in using a handheld device , but it is still best avoided . Still shows , though , that many don’t know the law .


I wouldn't do this - the police will still consider you to be driving...
what is the difference between your turning off the engine and a car with start / stop technology?

If you are in control of the car, then you can be considered to be 'driving' - whether that is logical or not is another matter... when you consider that someone was prosecuted for drink-driving in Scotland when they were sleeping in their camper van in a layby before catching a ferry - they had a drink the night before, but because they were in their vehicle and with the keys, they were considered to be in control of a motor vehicle and therefore in breach of the law.

simplest approach is simply not to use a phone other than through a hands-free setup.

Alasdair

Rightly or wrongly , the test that is used in law is whether or not the engine is running ; it is also used by most police forces .

At the end of the day , though , it isn't what the police 'consider' but what is determined in a court of law that counts .

'In control' or 'in charge' isn't the same as 'driving' : a passenger in the back seat could be 'in charge' of a vehicle , but clearly not driving . These are two completely separate pieces of legislation .

I agree , though , that it still isn't a desirable practice .

Re the 'drunk in charge' question , it ought to be a well known situation , although in a purpose designed camper van with proper beds it 'ought' to be different to sleeping in the seat of a passenger car . I've certainly slept in tents , camper vans and caravans , on campsites , after a few drinks , and with keys in my possession , as I'm sure have many others .

I was advised many years ago by a friend in the police if ever doing that to make sure I didn't have the keys on my person , the suggestion back then being to lock them in the boot .
Last edited by Pontoneer on Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

IcedKiwi
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: Sussex

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby IcedKiwi » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:13 am

akirk wrote:If you are in control of the car, then you can be considered to be 'driving' - whether that is logical or not is another matter... when you consider that someone was prosecuted for drink-driving in Scotland when they were sleeping in their camper van in a layby before catching a ferry - they had a drink the night before, but because they were in their vehicle and with the keys, they were considered to be in control of a motor vehicle and therefore in breach of the law.

I've heard of this before, along with the advice that if you do want to sleep in your car having been drinking then to leave your keys outside hidden on the tyre/suspension arm. Not sure whether it's been tested though...

User avatar
jont-
Posts: 1052
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:12 am
Location: Flatlands

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby jont- » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:52 am

Pontoneer wrote:Rightly or wrongly , the test that is used in law is whether or not the engine is running ; it is also used by most police forces .

At the end of the day , though , it isn't what the police 'consider' but what is determined in a court of law that counts .

Knowing someone on another forum who has taken 6 points after a passing cyclists headcam footage was used as proof of "using a phone" when he was stationary in a traffic jam and checking the map, I wouldn't want to chance it unless parked up in a layby.

Pontoneer
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:48 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Pontoneer » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:28 am

jont- wrote:
Pontoneer wrote:Rightly or wrongly , the test that is used in law is whether or not the engine is running ; it is also used by most police forces .

At the end of the day , though , it isn't what the police 'consider' but what is determined in a court of law that counts .

Knowing someone on another forum who has taken 6 points after a passing cyclists headcam footage was used as proof of "using a phone" when he was stationary in a traffic jam and checking the map, I wouldn't want to chance it unless parked up in a layby.


I read that anecdote on here somewhere , and my first thought was that he didn't have a good enough lawyer as the engine not running would have been his defence .

I also know this from a friend who is a JP , who told me this is in their guidelines and the first question that should be asked in court is 'was the engine running' . It is also why police cars will draw up alongside vehicles in lay bys and lower a window to hear whether the engine is running before challenging someone using a mobile device .

User avatar
akirk
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:58 pm
Location: Cotswolds

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby akirk » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:07 am

Pontoneer wrote:
akirk wrote:
Pontoneer wrote:Oh , and if stopped at lights , or in a traffic jam , turn off your engine and you’re no longer ‘driving’ , therefore no offence in using a handheld device , but it is still best avoided . Still shows , though , that many don’t know the law .


I wouldn't do this - the police will still consider you to be driving...
what is the difference between your turning off the engine and a car with start / stop technology?

If you are in control of the car, then you can be considered to be 'driving' - whether that is logical or not is another matter... when you consider that someone was prosecuted for drink-driving in Scotland when they were sleeping in their camper van in a layby before catching a ferry - they had a drink the night before, but because they were in their vehicle and with the keys, they were considered to be in control of a motor vehicle and therefore in breach of the law.

simplest approach is simply not to use a phone other than through a hands-free setup.

Alasdair

Rightly or wrongly , the test that is used in law is whether or not the engine is running ; it is also used by most police forces .

At the end of the day , though , it isn't what the police 'consider' but what is determined in a court of law that counts .

'In control' or 'in charge' isn't the same as 'driving' : a passenger in the back seat could be 'in charge' of a vehicle , but clearly not driving . These are two completely separate pieces of legislation .

I agree , though , that it still isn't a desirable practice .

Re the 'drunk in charge' question , it ought to be a well known situation , although in a purpose designed camper van with proper beds it 'ought' to be different to sleeping in the seat of a passenger car . I've certainly slept in tents , camper vans and caravans , on campsites , after a few drinks , and with keys in my possession , as I'm sure have many others .

I was advised many years ago by a friend in the police if ever doing that to make sure I didn't have the keys on my person , the suggestion back then being to lock them in the boot .


I think that the scottish case was partly because he was parked in a layby - though arguably that is not a lot different, however I think that all normal human beings considered it an inappropriate charge, but sometimes the police / CPS / etc. are a law unto themselves...

Alasdair

User avatar
angus
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:28 pm
Location: Colchester - Oldest Town, oldest roads

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby angus » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:26 pm

Pontoneer wrote:
martine wrote:...
[*]passengers tend to naturally pause the conversation if the driver is faced with a tricky situation[/list]


Not in the case of my nearest & dearest , or her ( non driving ) mother - both of whom will raise voices or shout my name if I don’t participate in their conversation , when the task of driving demands my full concentration. And I have tried to politely explain this to both of them at different times .
.


Pontoneer, you could try this:

A women is cooking eggs in the kitchen when her husband comes running in…

Immediately, he sees the eggs and gasps in horror.

"Be careful! CAREFUL! Put in some more butter! Oh, my GOSH!"

The wife, startled at her husband's violent reaction, dashes to the fridge to get some butter.

"You're cooking too many at once. TOO MANY! Turn them! TURN THEM NOW!"

The wife, concerned by the status of her husband's mental state,forgets about the butter and goes running to the eggs.

"WE NEED BUTTER! Are you CRAZY??? Where are we going to get the butter? They're going to stick! HURRY!"

The wife runs to the fridge

"CAREFUL about the eggs! CAREFUL. You NEVER listen to me when you're cooking! Never! Turn them quickly! Oh not that quickly, don't you know how to cook? Are you insane? Turn the DAMN EGGS!"

At this point, the wife starts crying, since she has no idea what to do.

She gasps "What is WRONG with you? I know how to cook eggs."

The husband simply smiles, remarks "I just wanted to show you what it feels like while I'm driving with you in the car", and leaves.

Pontoneer
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:48 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Pontoneer » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:56 pm

angus wrote:
Pontoneer wrote:
martine wrote:...
[*]passengers tend to naturally pause the conversation if the driver is faced with a tricky situation[/list]


Not in the case of my nearest & dearest , or her ( non driving ) mother - both of whom will raise voices or shout my name if I don’t participate in their conversation , when the task of driving demands my full concentration. And I have tried to politely explain this to both of them at different times .
.


Pontoneer, you could try this:

A women is cooking eggs in the kitchen when her husband comes running in…

Immediately, he sees the eggs and gasps in horror.

"Be careful! CAREFUL! Put in some more butter! Oh, my GOSH!"

The wife, startled at her husband's violent reaction, dashes to the fridge to get some butter.

"You're cooking too many at once. TOO MANY! Turn them! TURN THEM NOW!"

The wife, concerned by the status of her husband's mental state,forgets about the butter and goes running to the eggs.

"WE NEED BUTTER! Are you CRAZY??? Where are we going to get the butter? They're going to stick! HURRY!"

The wife runs to the fridge

"CAREFUL about the eggs! CAREFUL. You NEVER listen to me when you're cooking! Never! Turn them quickly! Oh not that quickly, don't you know how to cook? Are you insane? Turn the DAMN EGGS!"

At this point, the wife starts crying, since she has no idea what to do.

She gasps "What is WRONG with you? I know how to cook eggs."

The husband simply smiles, remarks "I just wanted to show you what it feels like while I'm driving with you in the car", and leaves.

I like that .

User avatar
Horse
Posts: 2041
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:22 pm

I'm not even going to think about saying that out aloud . . .
My own views. For better or worse :)


Return to “In The News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest