M1 Minibus "Accident"

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Gareth
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Gareth » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:58 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:
Gareth wrote:Do police officers ever use mobile phones while they are driving?


Argumentum ad verecundiam, and a weak one at that. In particular, congitive bias.

To answer the question: they probably do. And it would make them wrong too.

Nice of you to throw some words around, I was actually curious. Have seen US police officers using mobile phones while driving, Australians also, I think, but wasn't sure what happens in the UK. Many of the fly-on-the-wall programs show two up, although sometimes carrying a mobile phone in addition to one or more two way radios, but I know police officers are not always two up..
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jont-
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby jont- » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:04 pm

waremark wrote:
Horse wrote:I've posted before about some research I took part in. It was actually aimed at developing tests for the effects of brain injury on driving, in particular trying to develop something more effective than a fields test.

It involved 'driving' through a very simple computer-generated environment, following a path and steering around blocks that appeared. Two runs, the second with a simple additional task: listen to a recording of random letters being read and say 'yes' when 'S' was said.

Test 1 my reaction time was 0.4s. Test two, 2 seconds. Proof enough for me. Your opinion may differ, but based on what?

The point here is that your additional task was much more demanding of concentration than a casual conversation.

The worry is that your casual conversation becomes deeper and because of your conversation you don't recognise you've stopped paying attention to the activity of driving.

waremark
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby waremark » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:11 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:Mark, you say that you believe yourself perfectly capable of holding a hands-free conversation of considerable length without compromising the safety of your driving. If you truly believe that you don't miss anything important whilst in that conversation, how do you know? :confused:

I put it to you that you have absolutely no idea how much important stuff you miss while in a call because... well... you missed it. Could it be that, to date, you have just been remarkably lucky?

Well, maybe lucky, but not remarkable lucky. Literally millions of drivers probably use the phone in the car every day, and most times they don't crash. I have previously claimed to be fairly confident that I drive at least at 'Advanced Standard' when talking on the phone, and I hold to that view (though of course I may crash tomorrow, whether or not speaking on the phone).

Don't you think you generally know when you have been driving well, and when you have missed things, or maybe reacted to them late? I don't make those mistakes any more often when talking on the phone than when chatting to people in the car. I would make fewer driving mistakes if I didn't allow myself to be distracted in any way, but it is very rare for me to focus on the driving task to the exclusion of all else. I would admit to being very bad at avoiding distraction - whether by an interesting car parked at the side of the road, a conversation with my passengers, listening to talk radio, or indeed use of the phone.

The most dangerous aspect of using the phone for me is initiating the phone call.

waremark
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby waremark » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:18 pm

waremark wrote:
Horse wrote:I've posted before about some research I took part in. It was actually aimed at developing tests for the effects of brain injury on driving, in particular trying to develop something more effective than a fields test.

It involved 'driving' through a very simple computer-generated environment, following a path and steering around blocks that appeared. Two runs, the second with a simple additional task: listen to a recording of random letters being read and say 'yes' when 'S' was said.

Test 1 my reaction time was 0.4s. Test two, 2 seconds. Proof enough for me. Your opinion may differ, but based on what?

The point here is that your additional task was much more demanding of concentration than a casual conversation.

I did a mountain gliding course with a well known expert in the field. He thought it was important to continually calculate the height at which you would arrive at the next mountain peak or safe landing place. He recommended developing one's ability to do this by regularly practicing mental arithmetic while driving. I was horrified at this, because for me practicing mental arithmetic is a major distraction from the driving task.

His driving was equally horrifying. I followed him over twisty mountain roads with blind bends. He never used the brakes, and although it is easier to follow than to lead and I was in a more powerful car I struggled to keep up. To the best of my knowledge he is still alive!

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Strangely Brown
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:23 pm

Gareth wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:
Gareth wrote:Do police officers ever use mobile phones while they are driving?


Argumentum ad verecundiam, and a weak one at that. In particular, congitive bias.

To answer the question: they probably do. And it would make them wrong too.

Nice of you to throw some words around, I was actually curious. Have seen US police officers using mobile phones while driving, Australians also, I think, but wasn't sure what happens in the UK. Many of the fly-on-the-wall programs show two up, although sometimes carrying a mobile phone in addition to one or more two way radios, but I know police officers are not always two up..


Sorry, I didn't appreciate that it was a serious question.

I wasn't just throwing words around. The links I provided simply saved me a great deal of typing. Just because police officers do it, in the UK or elsewhere, doesn't mean that it is safe. A conversation with a disembodied voice requires a great deal more cognitive processing and use of the visual cortex than the same conversation face-to-face. Those that insist they are quite safe on a hands-free call seem to unable or unwilling to accept that.

The last time I accepted an incoming hands-free call while driving (on a dual-carriageway with light traffic) I made a point of trying to recall details of the journey from the time I answered to the time the call ended. I couldn't. The majority of that time was quite simply blank and it was no more than a few minutes previously. That was enough for me and ever since then I have made a point of not using hands-free unless stopped or in crawling traffic.

I wonder how many people are genuinely, intellectually honest about their own awareness while using the phone?

Apologies if I misunderstood your intent.

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Strangely Brown
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:43 pm

waremark wrote:Don't you think you generally know when you have been driving well, and when you have missed things, or maybe reacted to them late? I don't make those mistakes any more often when talking on the phone than when chatting to people in the car. I would make fewer driving mistakes if I didn't allow myself to be distracted in any way, but it is very rare for me to focus on the driving task to the exclusion of all else. I would admit to being very bad at avoiding distraction - whether by an interesting car parked at the side of the road, a conversation with my passengers, listening to talk radio, or indeed use of the phone.


Yes, I agree that I am aware of a feeling of having missed things when distracted and I am as equally susceptible to it as anyone else. Conversation, nice car, classy lady, pretty girl, stunning scenery, whatever. I am not immune. What I don't do, though, is deliberately give myself an additional, unneccessary distraction by using a phone. There is virtually no conversation that cannot wait until stopped. Everyone managed just fine before the proliferation of mobile phones. Is life really so different now? ... REALLY?

I am aware that thousands of people (millions?) make hands-free calls every day and do not crash. For most, the situation does not arise that would require them to react. I believe that many of these people are lucky. I further believe that many of these people are compensated for by the people around them. How many times have you had to compensate for another driver only to discover that they are obviously "using the phone", either hand-held, in their lap or "apparently talking to themselves"? I see it far more often than I like.

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Strangely Brown
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:47 pm

waremark wrote:I did a mountain gliding course with a well known expert in the field. He thought it was important to continually calculate the height at which you would arrive at the next mountain peak or safe landing place. He recommended developing one's ability to do this by regularly practicing mental arithmetic while driving. I was horrified at this, because for me practicing mental arithmetic is a major distraction from the driving task.


I saw an example test once, used to demonstrate how mental distraction *really* buggers up driving. It was a traffic officer asked to drive through a coned course as quickly as possible without hitting any cones. The first run through was, as expected, completely clean. On the second run he was asked to to the same again but this time count aloud, backwards from 100 in increments of 7s. It was not very far into the course before hitting the first cone and it went downhill from there.

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akirk
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby akirk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:09 pm

there is a fundamental question as to why any of us bother developing our driving / 'doing AD' and I am sure there will be many and varying answers, but amongst those answers we might find:
- extending the boundaries of our driving (ie being able to make more progress)
- increasing our contingency (ie increasing our safety margin)
sometimes the two are interlinked - we can make more progress at the same safety level, or we can keep the same level of progress, but increase safety...
it is possible therefore that if we are banking more contingency / safety, we can perhaps afford to give some of it up (e.g. with handsfree telephone calls), and still remain safe...

the problem with tests that show deterioration of concentration is that they are relative, not absolute - yes, adding any distraction must reduce concentration, but if added skills have sufficiently increased safety, then a relative reduction might not matter...

crr003
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby crr003 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm

Horse wrote:I've posted before about some research I took part in. It was actually aimed at developing tests for the effects of brain injury on driving, in particular trying to develop something more effective than a fields test.

It involved 'driving' through a very simple computer-generated environment, following a path and steering around blocks that appeared. Two runs, the second with a simple additional task: listen to a recording of random letters being read and say 'yes' when 'S' was said.

Test 1 my reaction time was 0.4s. Test two, 2 seconds. Proof enough for me. Your opinion may differ, but based on what?

So you proved the "two second gap" concept was correct? Good research!

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Horse
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:32 pm

crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:I've posted before about some research I took part in. It was actually aimed at developing tests for the effects of brain injury on driving, in particular trying to develop something more effective than a fields test.

It involved 'driving' through a very simple computer-generated environment, following a path and steering around blocks that appeared. Two runs, the second with a simple additional task: listen to a recording of random letters being read and say 'yes' when 'S' was said.

Test 1 my reaction time was 0.4s. Test two, 2 seconds. Proof enough for me. Your opinion may differ, but based on what?

So you proved the "two second gap" concept was correct? Good research!


Well done for working that out.

Now tell us what was going on in my brain to increase reaction time by 4-5x and, with a straight face and clear conscience, that it would have no adverse effect on driving.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.


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