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Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:14 pm
by Strangely Brown
jont- wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:Saying that the spell checker got it wrong is a cop-out because you should not be relying one.

Sometimes you need a grammar checker too ;)


Touché. In my defence, I don't expect to be taken seriously. :flail:

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:20 pm
by Strangely Brown
Horse wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote: . . . but are far too fallible, and even more


Oxford language? ;)

NB I would happily use a comma like that - rightly or wrongly :)


I think more of a pause than strictly appropriate use as an Oxford comma. I prefer the cadence of the sentence with it there.

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:01 pm
by Horse
Actually, me too.

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:15 pm
by Matt1962
a minimum of 10 hours’ professional tuition in a car with dual controls.


Why? Surely the dual controls are only necessary at the very beginning of training (and for many are not required at all). How does 10 hours with dual controls improve safety in any way?

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:00 pm
by sussex2
Matt1962 wrote:
a minimum of 10 hours’ professional tuition in a car with dual controls.


Why? Surely the dual controls are only necessary at the very beginning of training (and for many are not required at all). How does 10 hours with dual controls improve safety in any way?


An instructor may not be aware of the capabilities of the pupil in less than that time.
I am aware that over use of the controls can also be a problem. It must be clear that an instructor should tell the pupil if they are used, and why.

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:31 pm
by fungus
Duals should only be used by the instructor where there is likely to be a safety issue.

A demonstration of clutch control by the instuctor using the dual clutch can be usefull to help a pupil understand what they are aiming to achieve, but the instructor should emphasise that they have much more experience, and that the pupil will achieve that level of control with practice. After their first lesson they should have an understanding of the possible reasons as to why they stalled, although it may need reinforcing from time to time. So, allowing a stall when safe will teach them more than saving the stall. Similarly with braking, only if verbal instruction has failed should the instructor use the duals.

Nigel.

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:39 pm
by Matt1962
That was sort of my point. I would imagine that dual controls are much more about protecting the instructor’s pride and joy from minor damage, than major safety considerations. I would think that a lot of us commenting on this site have never been in a dual control car. Whatever the rights or wrongs of compulsory lengths of instruction, dual controls seem to be an irrelevance here.

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:05 am
by waremark
I learnt in my parents cars. I taught all three of my children in our cars. There were no dual controls involved, no damage was done, and nothing dangerous happened.

On the other hand there was some swapping between seats for demonstration purposes. And there was less time pressure than with a paid instructor.

I teach gliding - in machines with genuine dual controls. Demonstration forms a fundamental and regular part of instructing. I think driving instruction would be more productive in a car with genuine dual controls including accelerator and steering wheel, such as I have seen used in other countries.

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:22 am
by GTR1400MAN
How's this for dual controls ... with steering?

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/dual-controls-on-motorcycle/

Re: Graduated licencing again

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:15 am
by crr003
Matt1962 wrote:
a minimum of 10 hours’ professional tuition in a car with dual controls.


Why? Surely the dual controls are only necessary at the very beginning of training (and for many are not required at all). How does 10 hours with dual controls improve safety in any way?

Or; who has dual controls?
An ADI.
So it's a simplistic requirement to try and ensure the relevant supervision is in place - it's not about the physical use.

It's the same logical process that says if you weigh the same as a duck, then you're a witch.