RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

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TheInsanity1234
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:50 am

jont- wrote:I guess you may also have come across the phrase "it's the roads you know that kill you"? It's very easy to "know" what speed you can get round a bend, until you find something unexpected.

I've never heard that phrase, but don't worry, I try to make sure I can stop safely within the distance seen to be clear. I don't always get it right, and sometimes round a bend a bit quickly.

Strangely Brown wrote:Ah well. You know best. At least I tried.

I have taken on board your comments, and I shall try to eradicate the habit of pre-selecting gears!
I may have come across as grumpy and ignoring what you said, but that's because I wanted to get to bed and wrote my previous post quickly.

TripleS
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby TripleS » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:Adjust your speed, using the brakes as required, and THEN select a gear appropriate for the speed. NOT the other way round.

The advice is offered with the very best of intentions....


What you have advocated there is, of course, based on driving to The System, and it is certainly a logical approach; but are you saying that we should never do it the other way round? If you are, I'm in a spot of bother, because there are occasions where I'll make a downward gearchange and then use braking to get the speed right for the hazard, and quite honestly, although this is not in accordance with The System, I don't see any problem with doing it that way round. I'm basing this on a belief that in some circumstances we can be confident that our new gear selection will give us sufficient flexibility to be be suitable for the hazard, in which case I see no problem with making a final adjustment to the speed, after making the gearchange.

Perhaps I need some further enlightenment. :D

TripleS
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby TripleS » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:36 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Whoa there Brown! I think your comments have been read and accepted. Your advice was freely given, so you said, although you laboured the point a bit. Good advice seldom attracts effusive thanks until the benefit is realised in practice. Give it time ... :mrgreen:


Mark (SB) usually does offer good advice here, but in this case I'm not sure that the "gearchange first, then brake" approach is always going to be unsatisfactory.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:49 pm

I know where SB was coming from, and I think you have to go back to Insanity's earlier posts to understand his concern. Insanity mentioned changing gear and then braking quite firmly. There are a few issues with this:

- the gear selected may end up being the wrong one, requiring another gear change before, or while actually negotiating the hazard
- the early gear change may eat up some or all of the braking time for the hazard, leading to the brakes being applied, firmly, while turning - not a desirable thing especially if the road surface is slippery, and/or as Insanity has already confirmed, you have rather inefficient front tyres
- the gear selection is based on an optimistic assumption of the possible speed through the bend, which may need to be corrected based on the prevailing circumstances, as illustrated by JonT-
- and probably others ...
Nick

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Horse
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby Horse » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:09 pm

TripleS wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:Adjust your speed, using the brakes as required, and THEN select a gear appropriate for the speed. NOT the other way round.

The advice is offered with the very best of intentions....


What you have advocated there is, of course, based on driving to The System, and it is certainly a logical approach; but are you saying that we should never do it the other way round?


It's to 'a system', the roadcraft (et al) IPSGA - which itself was developed from the old bluebook roadcraft 7 or (for the lesser-talented) 6 point system (Can My Safety Be Given Away?).

There are many other driving related systems. Anyone who rabidly holds on to One True System (where's the Old English font when you need it?) is deluded and introvert.

Did you hear that 'fluttering' noise? That was the pigeons taking off rapidly :)

'Systems' can be both physical or mental.

How about the Smith Cummings Sherman visual road search system (or my '+1' version for motorcyclists)?

Or the US MSF 'SIPDE' - Scan Identify Predict Decide Execute, shortened to Search Predict Act, now superseded by Search Evaluate Execute

Or the MSF's cornering system: Slow, Look/Lean/Roll

Closer to home, the long-standing DSA OSM-PSL

How about 4xS? Safety System Smooth Speed Sparkle (how is it no-one could ever count . . . ? ;) )

Or, if you want the gear first, then brake, to work you'll need to reverse the order of two elements to Safety Smooth System Speed - IMHO far more sensible.

Another? Safe Smooth Style

Cornering? Slow Settle Steer

Information: Take Use Give

And, of course, 'COAST'.

No coasting here :)
My own views. For better or worse :)

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Strangely Brown
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby Strangely Brown » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:57 pm

For the avoidance of doubt and to clear up any misunderstanding:

While I *do* believe that you should generally get the speed right first and then take a gear appropriate to the speed, I am not suggesting that it is the only approach... for a driver with sufficient experience upon which to draw. However, for an inexperienced [1 year] driver who says that he leaves the gear change late and then brakes firmly and runs out of time to assess things properly, and appears to find the ABS more often than most, I would say it is a damed sight better that what he is doing!

I accept completely that he is young and still knows everything. Hopefully that will wear off quickly. In fact, I see from his last response that he may be on the way. I'll shut up now.
Last edited by Strangely Brown on Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TripleS
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby TripleS » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:31 pm

When I referred to The System, I was thinking about the IPSGA version. i would be the last person to suggest that it is the only legitimate system, or the one best suited to all situations.

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Horse
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby Horse » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:15 pm

Didn't think you were ;)
My own views. For better or worse :)

TheInsanity1234
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:25 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:However, for an inexperienced [1 year] driver who says that he leaves the gear change late and then brakes firmly and runs out of time to assess things properly, and appears to find the ABS more often than most, I would say it is a damed sight better that what he is doing!

You've taken it as that I'm doing that all the time. I'm not. Most of the time, when changing gear before braking, I change gear in plenty of time, and have no issue with slowing or anything. It's only on occasion that I've done it that way around that I've misjudged how much time I've got, and will either use firmer braking than usual to slow, or indeed, I'll just do the slowing, then change gear afterwards.

The main reason I occasionally change gear before braking is because I might have been driving in a cruising gear, and the gear won't allow me to slow to a safe speed without having to have the clutch down for a long time, which I don't like doing, so I select either a predicted gear that allows me to negotiate the hazard, or an intermediate gear to allow me to slow with less time declutched.

Strangely Brown wrote:I accept completely that he is young and still knows everything. Hopefully that will wear off quickly. In fact, I see from his last response that he may be on the way. I'll shut up now.

Of course I don't know everything. But what I do know, I'm more than happy to have that knowledge corrected, if it's wrong. (It won't be anyway ;))

But seriously, I do apologise if I've come across as being a know it all. I am 100% aware of the fact I know nothing, and I love learning more.

The problem for me is, I'm trying to describe a physical task in text, and trying to get advice on improving my skills, in text. I need someone to come along with me to assess my driving in the real world, but being a 6th former, I've got barely any time in the day to actually do things I want to do, so I'm just tootling along hoping I'm not doing anything wrong, while also being painfully aware that I'm probably doing everything wrong.

I'd rather be one of the 'sheep' and not give a damn about my driving, but unfortunately I care too much about my driving to ignore what I'm doing.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: RoSPA launches website to keep older drivers safe on the roads

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:42 pm

You find the time, I'll bring the assessment ...
Nick


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