Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby akirk » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:21 am

your points all make sense...
but :) we live in a society where historically we went on the basis of not regulating where possible...
we have a driving test which sets out to see if someone is at the correct standard before they get a licence...

to challenge your logic we must ask why we care about how someone is trained if they meet the standard we want, is our testing of someone's ability in the way they learn, or in the result / outcome - surely it has to be the latter, logically it doesn't matter if someone is taught by an ADI or a parent who just happens to be a naturally gifted driver and teacher - if they meet the standards on the day, then they get a licence... If the parent is no good as a teacher / driver, then presumably their child will fail the test...

if on the other hand there is a valid concern that some candidates pass their driving test without adequate teaching / learning / skills, then surely the issue is not the methodology by which they got there, but that the test failed to correctly identify them as not capable of driving to the desired standard...

I just don't see at a logical level why the person doing the teaching matters if the standards are reached... exactly the same issue in schooling - I have been a trained teacher for 20+ years and a school governor across a wide variety of schools for 15+ including state and private... In the state sector you must be qualified to teach, in the private sector it is usual, but not a requirement - I have seen good and bad teachers in both, their certificate allowing them to teach doesn't seem to be strongly linked to their ability as a teacher (and I say that having spent four years training, and having a certificate allowing me to teach!) - ultimately a good school looks for outcome - are children engaged in lessons / learning / producing results / continuing that subject to higher levels such as GCSE / A level / Degree...

The problem with a system based on 'trained / qualified' teachers is the assumptions it can lead to - I trained in the early 90s and am legally qualified to go into any school and teach any subject at any level, yet I have not actually taught in a school since the mid 90s and while I have an understanding as a governor, I do not have a detailed knowledge of the current teaching methodologies / curriculum / etc. Yet the 'system' would see me as a good teacher as I have a slip of paper filed away somewhere in the attic!

We have to base assessment on outcome, not on a belief in flawed systems...


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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby waremark » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:16 am

In terms of bad driving habits, I don't believe that the standard at which new drivers pass the driving test is a significant problem. The problem, if there is a problem, is what happens afterwards. Good habits, such as safe following distances and not sitting alongside other vehicles longer than necessary on multilane roads, are not deeply ingrained and are not reinforced. Driving standards would be improved by having more stages over a longer time in the process of getting a licence.

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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby waremark » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:22 am

On the more general topic of supervised practice, in Sweden experienced drivers wanting to supervise practice have to attend a course. This would have the double benefit of refreshing the parents skills as well as reducing the extent to which they pass on bad habits. I am sure the course will include stuff on how to keep the practice safe,, but I have no idea whether supervised practice is a significant cause of crashes. I suspect it may involve a high risk of minor bumps, in which case using it to reduce the cost of driving lessons would be a false economy.

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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby martine » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:02 am

akirk wrote:if a learner were only comfortable at 40mph I would be cautious about having them on the A417 / A419 here - fast, with lots of cars joining and leaving and even junctions where cars drive across...

Absolutely agree.

akirk wrote:,,,ref your analogy with pilots - if the test is adequate then I would have no issue - do we not generally believe in outcomes rather than inputs? If so, then as long as the outcome is a test which is passed, it matters not how the skill was acquired - it might lead us to question the accuracy of tests...

I agree in theory but I would suggest it's better and easier to control the learning process than attempt to have a test that with sufficiently wide range of driving scenarios to be sure the leaner is up to standard.

akirk wrote:... I don't like over-regulation so would prefer to not move away from the current regime...

Yes but that's a personal world view and I would suggest has little bearing on road safety.

On a similar note, Graduated Driver Licensing (GDL) is a sort of half-way house but their seems little/no chance of it happening with the current government's 'less regulation is better' stance - despite overwhelming evidence from countries across the world, it works. I've attended 2 presentations about GDL and Dr. Sarah Jones is a strong advocate.

Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby jaf01uk » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:17 pm

martine wrote:
angus wrote:I'd like to know how they propose to deliver the motorway side - here in Colchester, the nearest motorway (M25 or M11) is 40 miles away, and in areas of Suffolk and Norfolk even dual carriageway is a good distance.

Well it's all part of getting a licence I guess...it's either a good idea or it isn't - just a bit tough on those that live a long way from motorways. There are places in the UK where you have to travel large distances to get to a DVSA driving test centre and that's accepted.

Hi all, 1st post. This could indeed be problematic, where I live is far from remote and we would have to travel 130 miles to get onto the nearest part of the UK motorway network, more northern parts of mainland Scotland could be as much as 220 miles and that's before we start talking about islands, there would be major logistical (and financial) complications should this be forced through, nights and bad weather however could be relatively easily overcome...
and while we are talking about this subject would the night time element mean that big city drivers (some who have possibly never actually driven - even on motorways without the aid of streetlamps) be forced to venture into the countryside to drive in proper darkness?

"Eyes and ears like a ****house rat!"

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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby sussex2 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:10 pm

Perhaps we should stop regarding motorways as special roads.
Many roads are multi lane/have slip roads or a similar speed limit.
They are, in this country, comparatively rare in that some counties won't have a single mile of a motorway but they may well have similar roads.
I can see no reason as to why properly supervised ab initio drivers should not be able to use them.

Imagine for instance a young parent living along the M25 corridor (or circle?) who will not be allowed to use the road; but who will use it very soon after gaining a licence to take children to school!
What use is there in preventing them from gaining experience on the road before they have children in the car?

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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby sussex2 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:12 pm

Perhaps learners would be better served by having to use a three lane 70mph dual carriageway that suddenly narrows into a two way road or has a set of traffic lights in the middle of it.
I suggest the A27 in Sussex as a an ideal training ground :)

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