Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

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true blue
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby true blue » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:48 pm

akirk wrote:But the point is that in those conditions some A roads will be as bad... And if they are legal now there is little reason to exclude motorways...
Alasdair


Nail / head.

This is why I don't like the proposal for only ADIs to be allowed to take learners on motorways - aside from my concerns for the long-term future of non-ADI teaching, there's no evident logic to this decision.

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Discov8
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Discov8 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:55 am

Although, typically, motorways have faster moving traffic or congestion in several lanes at once, a pulsing traffic flow and everything mentioned above.

The whole process of learning to drive and who performs the instruction probably could do with a thorough overhaul to reflect current and projected future driving environments.

If the pass rate is so low the reasons should be explored and solutions found; even if this means further investment, more than just financial investment, by the pupil and instructor.

We need to remember that those of us with additional driver training above the compulsory are very much in the minority so while we may feel capable of teaching a family member to drive probably the majority are not. However, being in receipt of additional driver training doesnt automatically make someone a decent teacher \ instructor!

ancient
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby ancient » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:32 am

Discov8 wrote:If the pass rate is so low the reasons should be explored and solutions found; even if this means further investment, more than just financial investment, by the pupil and instructor.!

Why?
Why put more drivers on the road ? Surely we have enough congestion.
Yes I know this assumes they won't drive unqualified, but most will not.
Why is a low pass rate assumed to be a Bad Thing? Driving is a demanding task in charge of potentially lethal machinery. why can we not just accept that not everyone can do this well enough to be trusted in control on public roads (and that includes some with good car control skills)?

waremark
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby waremark » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:39 am

We seem to be agreed that most bad driving on motorways is performed by experienced drivers, and I have never heard of newer drivers having a high accident rate on motorways.

I bet new drivers don't follow very close or change lanes without looking in mirrors.

Why do we think that a driving lesson on a motorway will make any difference to long term motorway driving habits?

BTW, I agree that all skills relevant to motorway driving can be taught on A roads, which can be more dangerous. I think the logic of banning learners from motorways is about not affecting other traffic on what are supposed to be the fastest roads, the same reason tractors and low powered motorbikes are banned. Of course, it would be easier to justify this distinction if the motorway speed limit was raised to 90.

TripleS
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby TripleS » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:55 pm

If I recall correctly, most of the time during my driving lessons was spent out of town, but the test was done entirely in town, i.e. Scarborough. I expect the examiner didn't wish to be driven by me on derestricted :P roads: he must have heard something. Happy days. :D

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Discov8
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Discov8 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:24 pm

ancient wrote:
Discov8 wrote:If the pass rate is so low the reasons should be explored and solutions found; even if this means further investment, more than just financial investment, by the pupil and instructor.!

Why?
Why put more drivers on the road ? Surely we have enough congestion.
Yes I know this assumes they won't drive unqualified, but most will not.
Why is a low pass rate assumed to be a Bad Thing? Driving is a demanding task in charge of potentially lethal machinery. why can we not just accept that not everyone can do this well enough to be trusted in control on public roads (and that includes some with good car control skills)?



Why? It shows learners are being subjected to testing before they are ready. It has nothing to do with stopping more drivers joining our congested roads, if a learner reaches the prescribed standard, well done.

martine
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby martine » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:44 pm

true blue wrote:
akirk wrote:But the point is that in those conditions some A roads will be as bad... And if they are legal now there is little reason to exclude motorways...
Alasdair


Nail / head.

This is why I don't like the proposal for only ADIs to be allowed to take learners on motorways - aside from my concerns for the long-term future of non-ADI teaching, there's no evident logic to this decision.

I think the main problem is with the potential high differential in speeds between say a nervous and underprepared learner (with a 'supervising driver' who is completely out of their depth) and a rep-mobile well over the speed limit. M-ways have some particular hazards - one of which is speed which many learners are very conscious and nervous of.

If the learner were to drive say at a 'comfortable' (for them) 40, I believe it would be an accident waiting to happen. Or if the learner didn't check their mirrors and blind-spot correctly and changed lanes into the path of a rep-mobile, it could be very nasty with all surrounding traffic doing at least 70, as is usually the case.

A rural road can be dangerous of course but I think the potential for a multiple pile-up is considerably less.

I'm not for one minute saying all ADI's are brilliant but they have taken extra tests, are used to assessing and coping with novice drivers, most have dual-controlled fully marked-up cars and a professional reputation to maintain. If the worst were to happen, I believe a judge would take a different view to an ADI wrongly taking an underprepared learner on an m-way against an amateur. Just to be clear, I think the ADI would be punished more severely due to incompetence and quite rightly so.

Looking at the bigger picture, what's the logic in allowing untrained 'amateurs' to pass on their bad-habits to novice drivers anyway? There are some countries that only allow ADI's to supervise. How would you feel if a private pilot was taught to fly by his mate and then 'squeaked through' the flying test?

Currently only 1:4 leaners pass first time - that could be for all sorts of reasons but one of which is definitely the 'Dad' who thinks their off-spring is ready when they are clearly not. This shows a dangerous understanding of driving and I wouldn't want them to be allowed to take them out on a motorway.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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akirk
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby akirk » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:43 pm

if a learner were only comfortable at 40mph I would be cautious about having them on the A417 / A419 here - fast, with lots of cars joining and leaving and even junctions where cars drive across... however I would agree that there is more expectation of slow speeds on an A road (e.g. tractors etc.)

ref your analogy with pilots - if the test is adequate then I would have no issue - do we not generally believe in outcomes rather than inputs? If so, then as long as the outcome is a test which is passed, it matters not how the skill was acquired - it might lead us to question the accuracy of tests...

on the one hand I have seen parents who really shouldn't be teaching their offspring - (and having taken my car out with 14 year old godson driving the other day - on private land - I see how stressful it can be!) on the other, I don't like over-regulation so would prefer to not move away from the current regime...

Alasdair

fungus
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby fungus » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:46 pm

martine wrote:
true blue wrote:
akirk wrote:But the point is that in those conditions some A roads will be as bad... And if they are legal now there is little reason to exclude motorways...
Alasdair


Nail / head.

This is why I don't like the proposal for only ADIs to be allowed to take learners on motorways - aside from my concerns for the long-term future of non-ADI teaching, there's no evident logic to this decision.

I think the main problem is with the potential high differential in speeds between say a nervous and underprepared learner (with a 'supervising driver' who is completely out of their depth) and a rep-mobile well over the speed limit. M-ways have some particular hazards - one of which is speed which many learners are very conscious and nervous of.

If the learner were to drive say at a 'comfortable' (for them) 40, I believe it would be an accident waiting to happen. Or if the learner didn't check their mirrors and blind-spot correctly and changed lanes into the path of a rep-mobile, it could be very nasty with all surrounding traffic doing at least 70, as is usually the case.

A rural road can be dangerous of course but I think the potential for a multiple pile-up is considerably less.

I'm not for one minute saying all ADI's are brilliant but they have taken extra tests, are used to assessing and coping with novice drivers, most have dual-controlled fully marked-up cars and a professional reputation to maintain. If the worst were to happen, I believe a judge would take a different view to an ADI wrongly taking an underprepared learner on an m-way against an amateur. Just to be clear, I think the ADI would be punished more severely due to incompetence and quite rightly so.

Looking at the bigger picture, what's the logic in allowing untrained 'amateurs' to pass on their bad-habits to novice drivers anyway? There are some countries that only allow ADI's to supervise. How would you feel if a private pilot was taught to fly by his mate and then 'squeaked through' the flying test?

Currently only 1:4 leaners pass first time - that could be for all sorts of reasons but one of which is definitely the 'Dad' who thinks their off-spring is ready when they are clearly not. This shows a dangerous understanding of driving and I wouldn't want them to be allowed to take them out on a motorway.


A parents perception of their offsprings ability is often restricted to the fact that they can control the car with reasonable smoothness, and after all, you only learn to drive after passing your test don't you.

Probably the main reason for failure is lack of experience, after all dad passed his test after 10 lessons didn't he, so why can't I? In my case this was correct. But as I point out to my pupils, I could already drive a car, including manoeuvring, before my seventeenth birthday having been taught basic car control on an old Morris 8 at school, and then in my brothers Morris Minor 1000 on farm tracks behind the Iron Age hill fort of Badbury Rings, so I then had to learn to drive correctly on the public road, and back in 1968 there were probably less than seven million cars on the road compared to in excess of thirty three million today. This, along with much simpler roads systems, made the test much easier in those days.

There is also the fact that many young people are not exposed to dangers in the same way that we were, with many only having pedestrian experience, never riding a bicycle on the road.

Nigel.

Black Cat
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Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:31 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Black Cat » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:59 am

fungus wrote:
martine wrote:
true blue wrote:
...

This is why I don't like the proposal for only ADIs to be allowed to take learners on motorways - aside from my concerns for the long-term future of non-ADI teaching, there's no evident logic to this decision.


...

I'm not for one minute saying all ADI's are brilliant but they have taken extra tests, are used to assessing and coping with novice drivers, most have dual-controlled fully marked-up cars and a professional reputation to maintain. If the worst were to happen, I believe a judge would take a different view to an ADI wrongly taking an underprepared learner on an m-way against an amateur. Just to be clear, I think the ADI would be punished more severely due to incompetence and quite rightly so.

Looking at the bigger picture, what's the logic in allowing untrained 'amateurs' to pass on their bad-habits to novice drivers anyway? There are some countries that only allow ADI's to supervise. How would you feel if a private pilot was taught to fly by his mate and then 'squeaked through' the flying test?

Currently only 1:4 leaners pass first time - that could be for all sorts of reasons but one of which is definitely the 'Dad' who thinks their off-spring is ready when they are clearly not. This shows a dangerous understanding of driving and I wouldn't want them to be allowed to take them out on a motorway.


A parents perception of their offsprings ability is often restricted to the fact that they can control the car with reasonable smoothness, and after all, you only learn to drive after passing your test don't you.

Probably the main reason for failure is lack of experience, after all dad passed his test after 10 lessons didn't he, so why can't I? I

...

There is also the fact that many young people are not exposed to dangers in the same way that we were, with many only having pedestrian experience, never riding a bicycle on the road.


I would expand the primary causes of failure: overall lack of experience, lack of specific experience and poor quality experience.

All new drivers hit a point where their car control becomes natural - they are doing the basics largely subconsciously, which means they can manage to deal reasonably well with most road situations. In my experience this point usually comes anywhere between 20 and 100 hours of driving. If you haven't got to this stage, the chances of fluking a pass are remote - at some point in your 40 minutes the unexpected will happen and the car control if nothing else will let you down. As most people expect to take a test after 30-40 hours of lessons or equivalent, it is easy to see why failure is common.

I have taught a few who expected to be almost test ready because of their private practice. Turns out they have driven the same route to and from work or school with a parent for a few months. They have fairly good car control, can deal with some specific situations (those encountered on their daily drive) and probably can't reverse worth toffee. With these, in most cases they will need 10+ hours of lessons just to get manoeuvring sorted out (a minority just 'get' reversing, but if they don't, and that is the majority, it can take a long time to sort out).

And as for poor quality experience... Like most ADIs I see generally good students doing all kinds of things automatically because they have been advised to by a parent, or seen others do it, so monkey see monkey do, off the top of my head some common examples:

    Emerging too far to gain vision and reversing back into a road mouth
    Going offside to pass obstructions without taking the opportunity to look first (usually as they enter a side road),
    Accelerating well before and slowing after relevant speed limit changes
    Driving too close (even though they do a theory test, most learners will happily and confidently tell you that a safe gap is two car lengths)
    Failing to signal correctly where it is required - especially breakaway signals on roundabouts
    Late braking on approach to hazards
    Excessive coasting (my favourite is the knock it into neutral half a mile before the traffic lights brigade)
    Attempting to go through any amber lights regardless of whether stopping was possible and safe
    Emerging where it will clearly cause a vehicle to slow significantly

All of those habits will have a high likelihood of making an appearance on a driving test and have a high likelihood of causing a serious fault.

I can understand why the denizens of a forum like this feel more than skilled enough to teach their children, friends, relatives privately and don't doubt they will do a good job. But just as the quality of their driving will be the exception in the morass of the barely adequate to the downright dangerous out there on the roads, so is their ability to pass it on to others.

Trying to take a outside view (hard for me as an ADI), given the safety ramifications of poor driving, it seems madness to allow anyone to teach people to drive.

We don't allow anyone to claim to be a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, a school teacher etc., even though it would be perfectly possible to become very good without the normal training routes (and just look at the occasional examples of hospital doctors who work for years before someone discovers they only ever did the first two years of med school etc.)

It simply doesn't make sense within that sort of society framework that teaching someone to use a weapon up to 3.5 tonnes at 70mph should be left to chance. A big chunk of the quality issue in the ADI world is that it attracts many of the wrong kind of people and fails to retain many of the good ones. It is long hours and low pay for what you should be doing - and it is no surprise that many up and leave and others survive doing the bare minimum on a daily basis and putting in a performance every 4 years with their standards check.

If you want quality and safety in driving tuition, make ADI qualification more rigorous and relevant, make standards checking more frequent, restrict initial basic training to ADIs, and watch a market develop where quality and professionalism are rewarded. Combined with multilevel driving tests, where private practice is allowed once a basic level is attained, and you may have the makings of a great training system.


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