Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

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waremark
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby waremark » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:29 am

true blue wrote:Like waremark I have faith in my ability to teach a learner driver. Clearly I'm just a more objectionable person though!

It is just that I recognise how unusual we are in having the ability to teach good driving skills to our nearest and dearest so I don't think we can expect to have the rules built around us.

Who thinks there is a problem for this potential change to deal with? I don't think new drivers are the main perpetrators of bad driving on motorways.

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Strangely Brown » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:46 pm

Whilst I do not believe that the current driving test is fit for purpose, I also do not believe that adding a Motorway requirement to the test is the right place to start.

There are elements of everyday driving missing from the test that are far more important than Motorways. IMO, night driving and NSL rural roads should be taught and tested long before Motorways. If it requires a multi-part test in order to achieve that then so be it. I would be more than happy to see different competencies tested separately. The urban test can stay as it is and then test night driving and NSL rural separately.

If NSL rural roads are, as we constantly told, so "dangerous" then why is using them not taught and tested. Not everyone lives within a sensible distance of a motorway, but it gets dark everywhere.

The worst driving that I see on Motorways is usually from people that drive for a living. The worst being lorry drivers who seem to think that they can stop 44 tonnes in less than a few car lengths. Adding Motorways to the test appears, to me, to be a solution looking for a problem. Yes, it would probably be a benefit, but it's not the most important thing to tackle.

Carbon Based
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Carbon Based » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:46 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:The worst being lorry drivers who seem to think that they can stop 44 tonnes in less than a few car lengths.


I'm not convinced this trait is exclusive to lorry drivers - stopping distances seem to be very low on the list of priorities for most motorway drivers. Joining from a slip road, lane use, ignoring social media/hand held phone calls while moving, and not rubber necking incidents on the opposite side would also benefit from being added to said list.

Given that these are all common observations (I've been doing a lot of motorway miles lately) I can see the benefit of having a formal motorway requirement of the test - albeit equally applicable to multi lane dual carriageways.

Should it be restricted to ADIs to accompany learners?

Well ideally no, it should only require a competent, experienced driver, just like anywhere else. But how do you find one of those?

fungus
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby fungus » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:11 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:Whilst I do not believe that the current driving test is fit for purpose, I also do not believe that adding a Motorway requirement to the test is the right place to start.

There are elements of everyday driving missing from the test that are far more important than Motorways. IMO, night driving and NSL rural roads should be taught and tested long before Motorways. If it requires a multi-part test in order to achieve that then so be it. I would be more than happy to see different competencies tested separately. The urban test can stay as it is and then test night driving and NSL rural separately.

If NSL rural roads are, as we constantly told, so "dangerous" then why is using them not taught and tested. Not everyone lives within a sensible distance of a motorway, but it gets dark everywhere.

The worst driving that I see on Motorways is usually from people that drive for a living. The worst being lorry drivers who seem to think that they can stop 44 tonnes in less than a few car lengths. Adding Motorways to the test appears, to me, to be a solution looking for a problem. Yes, it would probably be a benefit, but it's not the most important thing to tackle.


As far as testing rural driving is concerned, it all depends where the test centre is located. Localy, I have the option of using two test centres. Bournemouth, where only one test route takes in about two miles of rural road, and not very testing at that. Dorchester on the other hand, a whole test could consist of rural road, including sections that are almost single track.

Given that a driving test lasts about 38 to 40 minutes, it is not possible to test a candidates ability in too many differing conditions, and suburban test centres are probably only using suburban roads which may, or may not include complicated junctions and multi laned roads. A rural town test centre like Dorchester, does not have any complicated junctions like a larger town, but it does have T junctions joining busy NSL roads, something that Bournemouth lacks. In order to be able to take in a wider variety of roads, a driving test would probably need to be about 90 minutes long. This will add considerably to cost, both for candidates, and Government, for which the current Government will not alocate extra money. It will more than double test waiting times, which at the Bournemouth test centre this year were back up to the levels experienced in the early 2000s of anything between 8 and 13 weeks.

In conclusion, whilst a drivers ability should be tested on more varied types of road, I can't see it happening due to the costs involved.

With reference as to whether only ADIs should be alowed to accompany a learner on a motorway, or whether anyone who is over the age of 21 and has held a full licence for three years could also accompany learners on a motorway. It depends. I have no doubt that many, if not most on this forum have the neccessary skills, but many drivers simply do not. See the reactionary manner in which many drive. Put them alongside a learner, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Be honest and ask youselves, are these drivers going to pass on their habits to the learner they are teaching? Most learners take lessons with an ADI, many also gaining road experience by driving with parents. It is important for the ADI to discuss rocedures with the parents where possible to avoid any conflict of information and confusion to the learner.

Nigel.

WhoseGeneration
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby WhoseGeneration » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:53 pm

It's a tough one this, how to prepare learners for all the conditions they will meet. It's very obvious the present regime does not.
Perhaps it's time for an enterprising company, possibly one currently producing flight simulators, to produce a driving simulator that can provide experience of all driving conditions that might occur.

Simulation to then become part of the driving test because, although there'd be a cost of course, simulators could be at every Test Centre.

Simulation could encompass so many situations that it might be of some benefit.

"You've crashed, now why do you think that happened".

fungus
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby fungus » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:59 pm

WhoseGeneration wrote:It's a tough one this, how to prepare learners for all the conditions they will meet. It's very obvious the present regime does not.
Perhaps it's time for an enterprising company, possibly one currently producing flight simulators, to produce a driving simulator that can provide experience of all driving conditions that might occur.

Simulation to then become part of the driving test because, although there'd be a cost of course, simulators could be at every Test Centre.

Simulation could encompass so many situations that it might be of some benefit.

"You've crashed, now why do you think that happened".


That's how the Hazard Perception Test should be, not the current format. But of course there's always the issue of cost. ;)

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akirk
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby akirk » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:10 pm

I see no issue with non ADI on motorways if you allow them to supervise on A roads... Many of which are more challenging them motorways...
Alasdair

WhoseGeneration
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby WhoseGeneration » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:46 pm

akirk wrote:I see no issue with non ADI on motorways if you allow them to supervise on A roads... Many of which are more challenging them motorways...
Alasdair


Nope, not if it's like the conditions I drove in last Sunday. That's my point about simulation, the ability to show the dark, congested, rain swept Motorway with muppets all around. Muppets who will lane change without a thought or indication and follow at two car lengths.

How many supervising drivers, or ADIs would take learners out in the worst possible conditions?

That's what is needed, that learners have experience of the worst conditions the roads will have in store for them.

I'd have liked some and a more Roadcraft based learning approach, I might have saved a few then.

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akirk
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby akirk » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:53 pm

But the point is that in those conditions some A roads will be as bad... And if they are legal now there is little reason to exclude motorways...
Alasdair

WhoseGeneration
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby WhoseGeneration » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:09 pm

akirk wrote:But the point is that in those conditions some A roads will be as bad... And if they are legal now there is little reason to exclude motorways...
Alasdair


You're correct of course and I should have said that my route also included A roads, which can be even more potentially dangerous.
That said, I'm just trying to suggest how learners might be more prepared.
The major point to remember is that, if daily observation is true, the majority of drivers, on all roads, in all conditions, do not drive in accordance with the Highway Code. These are the drivers who might supervise learners on Motorways.


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