Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

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Black Cat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:31 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Black Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:07 pm

fungus wrote:
Black Cat wrote:And in terms of steering, as Astraist has pointed out - we can always steer the car from the passenger side. In fact it is by far the most common dual control use with a learner (it isn't just the pedals you know...).


Yes, I had to grab the wheel this afternoon in Dorchester at the Top O the Town roundabout. The pupil, who was turning left first exit, or at least should have been, on pulling out onto the roudabout, instead of following the kerb around started to straighten up to go ahead. :o All this after checking mirrors and signaling left. The drive had otherwise been virtually faultless. So you never can be sure what they're going to do.


A fun roundabout... Especially with the islanded zebras on two approaches/exits. Was playing with it in the rain only yesterday. Best at lunchtime or school kicking out time in my experience :shock:

true blue
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby true blue » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:30 am

I wonder - is the reasoning behind keeping learners off the motorways at the moment based on safety, or traffic flow? There seems to be common agreement that some dual carriageways are at least as challenging as the average motorway (possibly more so, because of short entry/exit slips, e.g. the A1 in Lincolnshire). On the other hand, one can imagine that an unpredictable learner on a busy motorway may be undesirable because of the knock-on effects of causing 2 or 3 cars nearby to brake for one reason or another.

For the record I've no objection in principle to learner drivers being allowed on the motorway, I just object to the principle that only ADIs ought to be allowed to accompany them there.

Black Cat
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Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:31 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Black Cat » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:36 am

true blue wrote:I wonder - is the reasoning behind keeping learners off the motorways at the moment based on safety, or traffic flow? There seems to be common agreement that some dual carriageways are at least as challenging as the average motorway (possibly more so, because of short entry/exit slips, e.g. the A1 in Lincolnshire). On the other hand, one can imagine that an unpredictable learner on a busy motorway may be undesirable because of the knock-on effects of causing 2 or 3 cars nearby to brake for one reason or another.

For the record I've no objection in principle to learner drivers being allowed on the motorway, I just object to the principle that only ADIs ought to be allowed to accompany them there.


What is it about learners that makes you think they will increase the amount of unnecessary braking? Busy motorways are full of moments of unnecessary knock on braking from multiple cars due to the incompetence of the majority of drivers: driving too close (far, far too close), inappropriate lane changes, poor attention, misjudgement of closing speeds etc. Learners are far less prone to most of these, so cannot see they would increase the problem. In theory with enough learners on the motorway you might improve things through dilution of incompetence...:)

I can only see learners causing knock on problems for other drivers to any significant degree if they are totally unready to be tackling that kind of road, which is far more likely with private tuition than with an ADI. Learners may often be a little slower than other traffic, but most mid-stage learners would happily maintain 55-60mph on a free moving motorway, so in with the trucks etc., and many times I am on NSL DCs we spend most of our time overtaking, so we are not the mobile roadblock...

I rarely see driving school cars driving totally inappropriately on busy roads (there are mistakes of course, but overall progress is acceptable), but private learners can be very different. Followed one a few weeks back on the B3347 from Ringwood to Avon (Nigel/fungus will probably know the road) - NSL most of the way and 60mph is perfectly reasonable for all bar 1 pair of bends where 50-55 might be better. It was dark and it was raining, but we were averaging less than 20mph, with few overtaking opportunities due to oncoming traffic (and I was 3 cars back so almost impossible for me in the conditions). If my students aren't capable of maintaining reasonable progress on that kind of road, I won't be taking them onto it, but clearly the supervising driver thought it was all ok.

(Postscript: I finally got my chance on the Avon Causeway and slipped in a swift overtake (probably to some tutting and shaking of heads in the learner car - "madness in the dark and the wet" etc.).

true blue
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby true blue » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:48 pm

Partly nervousness / indecision / poorly timed indicators from the learner (no worse than a newly qualified driver though, I'm sure), and partly because other drivers will see the L-plates and act accordingly by braking to give them more space.

I did say 'I wonder' - happily I seldom encounter learners on the A14 as I don't often use it.

fungus
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:26 pm
Location: Dorset

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby fungus » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:08 pm

Black Cat wrote:I rarely see driving school cars driving totally inappropriately on busy roads (there are mistakes of course, but overall progress is acceptable), but private learners can be very different. Followed one a few weeks back on the B3347 from Ringwood to Avon (Nigel/fungus will probably know the road) - NSL most of the way and 60mph is perfectly reasonable for all bar 1 pair of bends where 50-55 might be better. It was dark and it was raining, but we were averaging less than 20mph, with few overtaking opportunities due to oncoming traffic (and I was 3 cars back so almost impossible for me in the conditions). If my students aren't capable of maintaining reasonable progress on that kind of road, I won't be taking them onto it, but clearly the supervising driver thought it was all ok.

(Postscript: I finally got my chance on the Avon Causeway and slipped in a swift overtake (probably to some tutting and shaking of heads in the learner car - "madness in the dark and the wet" etc.).


Yes I know the road. I have on occasions taken learners on it but I tend to use the B3078 Wimborne to Cranborne road, then left onto the minor road at the Horton Inn and then cross the A354 at Thickthorne Cross picking up the B3081 up to Cann Common via Zig Zag Hill, then take the C13 to Melbury Abbas and up Spread Eagle Hill back to Blandford Forum, then the B3082 back to Wimborne. Or do the route in reverse and drive up Zig Zag Hill.

For dual carriageways I sometimes use the A31 out to Ringwood, but usually I use the A35 Upton by pass as there are good opportunities to practice joining a NSL dual carriageway, exit, and re-join with a U turn at the Bakers Arms rondabout, then start all over again.

Nigel.

martine
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby martine » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:57 pm

true blue wrote:...I just object to the principle that only ADIs ought to be allowed to accompany them there.

Why?
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Discov8
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:24 pm

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Discov8 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:19 pm

I would prefer only ADI's on motorways with learners as a separate part of gaining a full licence.

I'm on motorways everyday of my working week and see lots of foolish behaviour, so Joe public passing on there bad habits and practice's should be avoided.

waremark
Posts: 461
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:23 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby waremark » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:30 pm

martine wrote:
true blue wrote:...I just object to the principle that only ADIs ought to be allowed to accompany them there.

Why?

Speaking from my own very unusual perspective I have much more confidence in my own ability to introduce my children to safe motorway driving habits than in that of any ADI.

But actually I don't object to the principle.

And the ADI of course should ensure that they don't take anyone onto a motorway who is likely to get in the way of the flow of traffic.

Rick448
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:48 pm
Location: Hessle

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Rick448 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:52 pm

Will the ADI test be amended to include motorway driving?

true blue
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby true blue » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:41 am

martine wrote:
true blue wrote:...I just object to the principle that only ADIs ought to be allowed to accompany them there.

Why?


Partly because I dislike to see an effective dilution of my rights as a driver (currently I believe that ADIs have no special privileges, aside from being allowed to charge their clients) and partly because I see this move as the thin end of the wedge in terms of non-ADIs teaching learners as it curtails the amateur's ability to teach the full syllabus. Step 2 will be that all learners will have to have xx hours with an ADI before being allowed out with an amateur, and step 3 will then be to require all tuition to be under the care of an ADI.

Like waremark I have faith in my ability to teach a learner driver. Clearly I'm just a more objectionable person though!


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