Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

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Astraist
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Astraist » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:22 am

true blue wrote:Also, what use will dual controls be? There's no second steering wheel, so lane control won't be assisted. I should think that unexpected and probably heavy braking from the ADI will (almost) never be a good thing on a motorway! And, so far as I'm aware, the dual controls can't be used to stop the learner from braking?


An alert instructor can place his or her foot under their own brake pedal.

Lane control is also possible (at least on a passenger car) by reaching out for the driver's hand on the wheel (there is a principle in driver's development not to grab the wheel itself and allowing the driver to submit control to the coach). We are not talking big corrections here....

Gareth
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Gareth » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:14 am

Astraist wrote:An alert instructor can place his or her foot under their own brake pedal.

A good recipe for a mashed foot - I speak from experience, although I was the one doing the mashing. I'm sure 7db would prefer not to recall the experience ...
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:13 pm

I've had the mashed foot - very painful even though the driver was only braking very gently.
Nick

martine
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby martine » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:41 pm

angus wrote:I'd like to know how they propose to deliver the motorway side - here in Colchester, the nearest motorway (M25 or M11) is 40 miles away, and in areas of Suffolk and Norfolk even dual carriageway is a good distance.

Well it's all part of getting a licence I guess...it's either a good idea or it isn't - just a bit tough on those that live a long way from motorways. There are places in the UK where you have to travel large distances to get to a DVSA driving test centre and that's accepted.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

martine
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby martine » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:50 pm

true blue wrote:Having seen the quality of ADI tuition a few years ago when my other half was learning to drive, I think limiting motorway access for learners to ADIs only is a poor idea.

Also, what use will dual controls be? There's no second steering wheel, so lane control won't be assisted. I should think that unexpected and probably heavy braking from the ADI will (almost) never be a good thing on a motorway! And, so far as I'm aware, the dual controls can't be used to stop the learner from braking?

At the moment I'm permitted to take a learner driver on the A14, which is more challenging than many motorways, without dual controls and without being an ADI. Presumably I'd retain this right?

The whole thing smacks of a half-baked idea, with the panacea of dual controls and ADIs used to cover up the fact that whoever came up with it hasn't got a basic understanding of how the system works now.

I think that's a little harsh...of course there are good and bad ADI's but I would suggest the general level of driving and awareness is better with an ADI. They should also know how best to correct any serious errors quite early - which I think the average 'Mum or Dad' wouldn't.

Good point about the A14 but I bet there are plenty of learners near you who don't even get on to that road...all that's being suggested is ADI's be allowed to take them on m-ways as part of their learning...it may or may not be compulsory but either way, it would need a change in the law.

I believe the idea came from ADI's themselves...and before you suggest it's just a money-making exercise, the ADI's I've met would be quite insulted by that.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

Black Cat
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Black Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:41 pm

Astraist wrote:Lane control is also possible (at least on a passenger car) by reaching out for the driver's hand on the wheel (there is a principle in driver's development not to grab the wheel itself and allowing the driver to submit control to the coach). We are not talking big corrections here....


Interesting (if I have understood correctly) - the principle in in the UK (at least for ADIs) is that there is a no contact rule ('cos we might be perving them up innit). So I would always aim to hold the wheel not a hand. Plus on quite a lot of the occasions where you do have to assist with steering, it needs to be a sudden (but short) action, to prevent the student resisting before some adjustment is applied.

The other day for example we were approaching a vehicle in lane 1 of a dual carriageway who had started to signal to turn left and was slowing. I was watching for my learner to check their offside (quite advanced, so we are largely trying to do without verbal prompts so they are independent), when they suddenly realise late what is happening and immediately swerve right (with a vehicle on our offside rear corner overtaking) - so I apply a short rapid tug left to ensure they don't resist before I have started the car moving back fully into lane 1. Didn't have time to use a verbal command to move them back, and in those situations I want direct control of the wheel...

Of course that example also fits nicely with martine saying that non-ADIs are less likely to be able to cope with serious issues. When something like that happens, instinct and experience kick in quickly for someone who does this day in and day out, but for Joe Public it may well not and then the brown stuff can rapidly be in the fan.

Black Cat
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby Black Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:57 pm

true blue wrote:Also, what use will dual controls be? There's no second steering wheel, so lane control won't be assisted. I should think that unexpected and probably heavy braking from the ADI will (almost) never be a good thing on a motorway! And, so far as I'm aware, the dual controls can't be used to stop the learner from braking?


Most important dual control for and ADI is the voice... But even that takes practice and experience to get right. Am I better at controlling my pupils to stop things even getting to a physical dual control stage now than I was three years ago when I qualified - definitely - and I'll be many times better again in another three years. So am I likely to be better able to deal with things beginning to go wrong in a fast moving, busy situation on a motorway than Joe Public (who may be a very good driver themselves) teaching their child to drive? I certainly hope so.

And in terms of steering, as Astraist has pointed out - we can always steer the car from the passenger side. In fact it is by far the most common dual control use with a learner (it isn't just the pedals you know...).

true blue wrote:The whole thing smacks of a half-baked idea, with the panacea of dual controls and ADIs used to cover up the fact that whoever came up with it hasn't got a basic understanding of how the system works now.


I agree that the idea doesn't work with the system as it is, and I don't really know the answer. The idea of an MotP (or indeed a very naive or incompetent ADI) taking a really inexperienced driver on to a motorway is a frightening one. But they can already take them onto roads like the A14 (pretty hairy when I last used that section back 15 years ago), the A31 down my way, or even the A40 out of London at 5pm on a Friday in winter, pretty much my definition of motoring hell (and some days when I have driven that I need to change my own undergarments afterwards...).

Some kind of two level assessment would be best perhaps. A bit like bikes with CBT etc. An initial demonstration of basic competence to control a car and understand basic road usage, would then allow you to progress to training (privately or with an ADI) on DCs and motorways. All pie in the sky. Every government for the last 30 years to my knowledge (and probably before that) has come up with countless reforms of driver training that were 'going to happen'. but they never do.

fungus
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby fungus » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:58 pm

Astraist wrote:
true blue wrote:Also, what use will dual controls be? There's no second steering wheel, so lane control won't be assisted. I should think that unexpected and probably heavy braking from the ADI will (almost) never be a good thing on a motorway! And, so far as I'm aware, the dual controls can't be used to stop the learner from braking?


An alert instructor can place his or her foot under their own brake pedal.

Lane control is also possible (at least on a passenger car) by reaching out for the driver's hand on the wheel (there is a principle in driver's development not to grab the wheel itself and allowing the driver to submit control to the coach). We are not talking big corrections here....


With He Man cable dual controls the instructors pedals do not move when the pupil presses the brake or clutch. With the old rod dual controls the pedals did, but it would still be very difficult to reduce the effect of braking by a noticable amount if a pupil was determined to plant their foot firmly on the brake.

There may be no second steering wheel, but the instructor does usually have a right hand. They should also be ahead of the game as I would expect many who have taken advanced driving courses to be. Being ahead of the game in a busy motorway or dual darriageway situation is probably something that the average parent/driver is, I suspect, not.

Hopefully an ADI would not be stupid enough to put a learner who is not able to cope with a motoway or a dual carriageway such as the ones mentioned, out onto any such roads.

Nigel.

fungus
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby fungus » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:18 pm

Black Cat wrote:And in terms of steering, as Astraist has pointed out - we can always steer the car from the passenger side. In fact it is by far the most common dual control use with a learner (it isn't just the pedals you know...).


Yes, I had to grab the wheel this afternoon in Dorchester at the Top O the Town roundabout. The pupil, who was turning left first exit, or at least should have been, on pulling out onto the roudabout, instead of following the kerb around started to straighten up to go ahead. :o All this after checking mirrors and signaling left. The drive had otherwise been virtually faultless. So you never can be sure what they're going to do.

TheInsanity1234
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Re: Learners - motorways, night, bad weather

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:39 pm

I've always thought we should set up more driving schools which teach off road lessons in private road networks such as Cardrome in Romford, and basically you learn how to drive a car, so all the elements of the 'operation' of a car is done and practised somewhere safe without the risk of driving into another car.

I would then suggest a test on the private roads to make sure the driving skills are up to standard. If you pass this test, you're allowed out on to the roads to learn how to deal with traffic, and then another test to make sure everything's good enough for the public roads.


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