BBC Panorama

Articles of interest to the AD community, currently in the news.
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akirk
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby akirk » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:54 pm

stick something over the gear-change light - that is set for 'economy' or sluggish driving, not real driving :D
then ignore what the engine sounds like - you are unlikely to blow it up staying well within the range - even in the red, it is probably protected! (disclaimer, if you do blow it up - not my fault, put it down to experience :D)

one of the biggest eye openers I had when receiving some coaching was being encouraged to use the full range of the car's engine - why do they build it if it is not to be used...

interesting aside - when I owned an Alfa, the manual didn't tell you to avoid the red zone on the rev counter - it simply said, please don't stay there too long :D - they knew you would use it...

Alasdair

waremark
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby waremark » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:11 am

TheInsanity1234 wrote:Yes, that's all well and good, but the Yeti makes a fair amount of unpleasant noise at any engine speed over 2500 rpm,


That's quite unusual. In my experience most diesels are not unpleasant until above 4,000. How do you know and why does it affect you?

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Horse
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby Horse » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:59 pm

akirk wrote: one of the biggest eye openers I had when receiving some coaching was being encouraged to use the full range of the car's engine - why do they build it if it is not to be used...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

On the first AD day I attended, it was suggested that I might want to consider using a higher gear . . . :oops:

:D 8-) :D 8-) :D
My own views. For better or worse :)

TheInsanity1234
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:28 pm

Gareth wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:the Yeti makes a fair amount of unpleasant noise at any engine speed over 2500 rpm

Maximum power is at, maybe, 4400 rpm but you won't use it?

I will happily accelerate up to about 4500 rpm, but what I meant is the noise/vibration is intolerable for any sustained period of time. It's okay for 30 seconds while I'm accelerating to 40 in second, but any more than that and it's just nasty.

Gareth wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:and it's got no power below 1500 rpm.

The power you are missing has been located further up the rev range :roll:

I'm fully aware of that, and I've used it more than once. I'm saying that the car just won't accelerate in any gear over 3rd if you're below 1500 rpm, very unpleasant and is what forces me to constantly change between 3rd and 4th. :roll:

akirk wrote:stick something over the gear-change light - that is set for 'economy' or sluggish driving, not real driving :D

It's not a light, it's a gear indicator that tells you your current gear, and if it thinks you should be in a different gear, it tells you what gear it thinks you should be, alongside a irritating little white block with a black arrow in it telling you whether it's a "change up" or "change down".
Like this:
Image

Incredibly irritating...

waremark wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:Yes, that's all well and good, but the Yeti makes a fair amount of unpleasant noise at any engine speed over 2500 rpm,

That's quite unusual. In my experience most diesels are not unpleasant until above 4,000. How do you know and why does it affect you?

It's mostly just excessive noise and vibration. It's tolerable if you're accelerating really quickly in a low gear to jump into a higher gear, but it's just something that becomes wearing when you're trying to sustain it for any length of time. I'll happily rev up to 3000 rpm in daily driving, and often reach 4500 rpm when I need the acceleration, but my parents disapprove of it, and think I'm being mechanically unsympathetic (which might be a psychological contribution to not wanting to sustain higher revs).
Having said that, I found my ex-instructor's Micra nasty to rev, and didn't take it over 3000 rpm very often. (1.0 petrol).

akirk wrote: one of the biggest eye openers I had when receiving some coaching was being encouraged to use the full range of the car's engine - why do they build it if it is not to be used...

Precisely what I said to my instructor/parents whenever they questioned my "excessive use of the rev range"...
Apparently the instructor didn't have a student who dared go over 2500 rpm in the past :mrgreen:
The other irony is, my parents said it would be useful for me to have the gear change indicator because I "can't hear the engine, so wouldn't know what gear I needed to be in", because of course, you need to "listen" to the engine to choose appropriate gears...
I've happily driven the Skoda Citigo (on my under-17 driving lessons) which had no rev-counter and I had no problem with choosing gears.

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Adamxck
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby Adamxck » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:09 pm

What rpm is 30mph in 2nd, 3rd and 4th? Just curious.

You shouldn't experience excessive vibration at high rpm. Either you have no reference point for what it feels like in various other cars, or yours is a bit broken.
Adam.

TheInsanity1234
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:30 pm

Adamxck wrote:What rpm is 30mph in 2nd, 3rd and 4th? Just curious.

You shouldn't experience excessive vibration at high rpm. Either you have no reference point for what it feels like in various other cars, or yours is a bit broken.

30 mph is:
About 3000 rpm in 2nd,
About 1700 rpm in 3rd,
About 1200 rpm in 4th.

It may just be I have no real understanding of what it's like to rev the engine because my instructor didn't really like me revving the engine, and my parents never went above 2500 rpm in day-to-day driving when I was younger.
But in the Citigo I was encouraged to try and reach 60 as fast as I could, and the instructor told me to hold 2nd until I got to about 55 mph (if similar ratios, then probably about 6000 rpm), and the vibration from that was similar to what I get if I go over about 4000 rpm in the Yeti.

It's probably more to do with my lack of reference points, but whenever I hear a petrol engine being revved, they make a pretty nice noise (even the 1.0 Ecoboost in my friend's parent's Fiesta), but the Yeti just makes a nasty roaring noise. Diesels for you, I guess...

The other thing I didn't get is why the Yeti's 1.6 TDI struggles at below 1500 rpm, but the Galaxy's 1.9 TDI will pull from just over idle without any sign of struggling. The Clio before the Yeti was a 1.5 dCi and that was a wonderful engine (The only engine my parents happily revved to about 3500 rpm before changing up on occasion). It was also quite happy plodding along at just over idle, and never seemed to have any flat spots in the power-band.

sussex2
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby sussex2 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:25 am

We have a Citroen van (1.3 tdi Fiat engine) which has gear changing lights.
I can say absolutely that if you were to change gear when the light flashes you would be verging on the dangerous. I earnestly believe that to encouraging people to be in 4th or even 5th in urban situations is irresponsible advice.
The light can be disabled which to my mind is a very good thing.
The MX5 (1.6 110bhp) hardly pulls at all unless you are showing 5k on the rev counter. It needs to be driven with enthusiasm and that is the whole point of the machine; which means that in town I will most likely be in 2nd and 3rd and rarely, if ever, use 4th.

No engine operating within its' designed rev range should sound strained and any damage is more likely to be done by letting the thing labour in an unnecessarily high numbered gear.

I do think there is a certain amount of 'how you do the revving' involved and if done with correctly and with spirit there shouldn't be any complaints :)

gannet
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby gannet » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:28 am

I also find gear change lights annoying. Be grateful the one you sore is the size it is. The one in the DS3 is about 5 times the size of that :o and never tells you to change down, best ignored...

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akirk
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby akirk » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:40 am

TheInsanity1234 wrote:
akirk wrote:stick something over the gear-change light - that is set for 'economy' or sluggish driving, not real driving :D
It's not a light, it's a gear indicator that tells you your current gear, and if it thinks you should be in a different gear, it tells you what gear it thinks you should be, alongside a irritating little white block with a black arrow in it telling you whether it's a "change up" or "change down".

you can still put a sticker over it :D

sussex2 wrote:No engine operating within its' designed rev range should sound strained and any damage is more likely to be done by letting the thing labour in an unnecessarily high numbered gear.


I suspect it is more that increasingly drivers are not familiar with the sound of an engine at higher revs, than that it sounds strained - it is lack of familiarity... we are perhaps also used to lots of machinery from washing machines to drills where higher revs = extra work, so we try in a car to keep revs low...

admittedly my z3 with a straight 6 petrol engine sounds better at high revs than the skoda octavia diesel...

Alasdair

sussex2
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Re: BBC Panorama

Postby sussex2 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:19 am

I had a fleet of Opel/Vauxhall Senators years ago with my business and I loved the sound of the straight 6 when you put your foot down - minus I hasten to add the client sitting in the back; though some of them didn't mind :)
Perhaps it's the quality of the noise rather than the quantity :)


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