Advanced Driving Hub

You could argue that persisting with car transport based on fossil fuel is also keeping heads in the sand ...

If granny has to use a dual carriageway on her way to the post office (most people don't have to go to the post office for pensions any more btw) on her mobility scooter, then something's wrong with the road infrastructure. Much as I protest that everyone has the same right to use roads, there are limits to how sensible it is - walking along a 70mph DC would be a bit silly, and mobility scooters are not much different. Alternatives should be provided though.

I used to cycle to the shops on my trike when I was about 4 (on the pavement though, and no, I wouldn't send my 4 year old out to the greengrocer's nowadays).

Why do you suppose that?

Horse wrote:Why do you suppose that?

The greengrocer went out of business when Aldi opened next door?

Silk wrote:

Horse wrote:

Silk wrote:You seem to be making the case for banning some cyclists.

As I'm sure you realise, I'm emphasising the case for responsible driving, accepting the presence of others.

I suppose you think it would be ok for a four-year-old on a trike to be out on the road by themselves.

Why do you suppose that?

Horse wrote:

Silk wrote:

Horse wrote:

Silk wrote:You seem to be making the case for banning some cyclists.

As I'm sure you realise, I'm emphasising the case for responsible driving, accepting the presence of others.

I suppose you think it would be ok for a four-year-old on a trike to be out on the road by themselves.

Why do you suppose that?

It's up to the nasty car driver to expect a four-year-old on a trike to be on the road?

Silk wrote:

Horse wrote:

Silk wrote:

Horse wrote:
As I'm sure you realise, I'm emphasising the case for responsible driving, accepting the presence of others.

I suppose you think it would be ok for a four-year-old on a trike to be out on the road by themselves.

Why do you suppose that?

It's up to the nasty car driver to expect a four-year-old on a trike to be on the road?

How far is a four year old on a trike likely to stray from home? In extreme, perhaps some way. But it's mostly going to be near housing or recreational areas - where there are likely to be the cars their parents have transported them in.

So, yes, if a nasty car driver doesn't expect or plan for such events then, yes, your description as 'nasty' may be appropriate. Your description, not mine.

Silk, whilst I agree with you that some people shouldn't be on the roads, especially young children, it is not just motorists who should have the right to use the roads. Your arguments fall flat in several places. We have these modern roads only because the cars require them. Car drivers simply have to be more tolerant.

Maybe we should just ban cars instead? It's already happening in many places. More room for pedestrians and cyclists! Can you actually remember how to walk?

Imsensible wrote:Silk, whilst I agree with you that some people shouldn't be on the roads, especially young children, it is not just motorists who should have the right to use the roads. Your arguments fall flat in several places. We have these modern roads only because the cars require them. Car drivers simply have to be more tolerant.

Back in the 70s when I was a kid and before we had all this "rights" crap, we were taught to stay away from the road, so that's what we did. Remember the Green Cross Code? It was all about respect for the superior road user. Of course everyone should be able to use the roads, but they should respect the natural hierarchy. These days, wandering out into the road without a care in the world seems to be something that's positively encouraged.

Imsensible wrote:Maybe we should just ban cars instead? It's already happening in many places. More room for pedestrians and cyclists! Can you actually remember how to walk?

That's all well and good until you realise that, in order to have the kinds of places where pedestrians and cyclists want to go, they have to be serviced by motor vehicles (goods need to be delivered and machinery/IT systems need to be maintained). As I've said many times, but it fails to sink in, we will all be a lot safer as long as all road users are aware of the pecking order which, at the moment, is motor transport first. I actually do a lot of walking. I'm not someone who will use the car to go half a mile to the shops. But I make sure I look when I cross the road. I've noticed with a lot of cyclists these days, that they don't even have to be anywhere, they're just blocking the roads for the sake of it. They then have the audacity to put the footage on YouTube when a normally peaceful motorist loses it and shoves the arrogant prat in the ditch.

Yes I remember the green cross code. I was cycling in the 70s. And the 80s, 90s and beyond. There isn't a pecking order... that exists in your mind and the minds of other misguided motorists. Many of whom used to enjoy cycling when they were younger and probably moaned about the motorists displaying the same attitude as they themselves now do. Just because you have to look before you walk in to the road, does not mean they should just assume a submissive role. Do you look before you pull out of a junction? Pedestrians and cyclists not looking or paying attention is nothing to do with a pecking order. Plenty of motorists don't look either.

Like it or not, you'll have a hard time convincing a court that the pedestrian/cyclist/equestrian doesn't have as much right to be there as you do. And in fact they have a Right to be there. Motorists only have a licence to use roads.

Maybe all cyclists should get written permission, in advance, from Lord Silk to be on the road at all? The attitude you display, your 'superior' attitude is exactly why walking, cycling and the like are so dangerous in the first place.

I pity those who receive tuition from you, they must come away thinking you're a pretty poor example of an advanced driver.

Imsensible wrote:Like it or not, you'll have a hard time convincing a court that the pedestrian/cyclist/equestrian doesn't have as much right to be there as you do. And in fact they have a Right to be there. Motorists only have a licence to use roads.

This.

I think though it is a little more subtle - we all are humans with a right to use the road system - the way in which we use it can be licensed or not...
I think that this is at the root of some of the issues - why do we see each other as motorists / cyclists / pedestrians? We are not, we are all humans temporarily using the road in a different way - as such we need to respect each others as humans...

Alasdair