HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon May 30, 2016 12:04 pm

While you do do it naturally, to be good at it, it needs teaching.

Once an Associate understands how they corner they are much better placed to actually do it and their cornering improves. Being able to apply additional counter/positive steering when needed can be the difference between getting round or visiting the hedgerow. It's also useful to know how to swerve.

Only the other day I had a rider who hadn't really 'got it'. He was pushing down on the bars rather than around the steering head.
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exportmanuk
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby exportmanuk » Mon May 30, 2016 3:02 pm

Imsensible wrote:Anybody who has ever ridden a bicycle will automatically use "counter steering". It is something that you pick up on within a few minutes of learning to balance. It does not need teaching, as it happens naturally, in the same way that people subconsciously move their bodies to keep upright. I suspect that many competent riders would struggle to do it consciously. People have been riding on two wheels for over a century without being schooled in counter-steering. :popcorn:


Whilst I agree with it is natural to counter steer BUT it does need to be a concious process whilst riding a motorcycle. If you are not aware of and consciously practice counter steering then in an emergency situation you will steer instinctively away from the hazard which will send the bike towards it instead.

I have had many associates who think you steer a bike by leaning and either have no knowledge of or think counter steering is a load of twaddle.
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Imsensible » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:02 am

exportmanuk wrote:
Imsensible wrote:Anybody who has ever ridden a bicycle will automatically use "counter steering". It is something that you pick up on within a few minutes of learning to balance. It does not need teaching, as it happens naturally, in the same way that people subconsciously move their bodies to keep upright. I suspect that many competent riders would struggle to do it consciously. People have been riding on two wheels for over a century without being schooled in counter-steering. :popcorn:


Whilst I agree with it is natural to counter steer BUT it does need to be a concious process whilst riding a motorcycle. If you are not aware of and consciously practice counter steering then in an emergency situation you will steer instinctively away from the hazard which will send the bike towards it instead.

I have had many associates who think you steer a bike by leaning and either have no knowledge of or think counter steering is a load of twaddle.


What a person thinks they do to turn a bike, and what they actually do are not necessarily the same. That doesn't mean they can't and don't do it. I don't really know how I run up a flight of stairs in low light without looking directly at them, but I can do it without breaking my neck.There may be people who can't ride around bends well to start with, but it's just a matter of acclimatisation. If you can steer a bike, you're already counter-steering to some degree.

People have been riding round bends for a long time, and most will never have heard of counter-steering. How did they manage? :biker: :bike:

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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby exportmanuk » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:40 am

Imsensible wrote:
People have been riding round bends for a long time, and most will never have heard of counter-steering. How did they manage? :biker: :bike:


When something unexpected happens often they don't and become yet another statistic
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Horse » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:58 pm

exportmanuk wrote:
Imsensible wrote:
People have been riding round bends for a long time, and most will never have heard of counter-steering. How did they manage? :biker: :bike:


When something unexpected happens often they don't and become yet another statistic


Exactly! Difficult to prove, but I'd suggest that not being able to steer consciously and deliberately has been the final downfall of many riders :(

At the other extreme, in normal, day to day, riding, there are times when conscious counter-steering makes riding much easier and controlled. For example, when coming to a halt, the average rider will just slow down then, as the bike eventually falls more to one side or the other, they'll stop, possibly with 'that' foot down, perhaps both. So how do those riders cope when faced with the *need* for a deliberate choice, for example on a camber?

The answer is the "Betty Boothroyd" technique: as you slow, and do the final squeeze of the clutch, press briefly forward on the side of the foot you want to put down.
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Imsensible » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:51 pm

exportmanuk wrote:
Imsensible wrote:
People have been riding round bends for a long time, and most will never have heard of counter-steering. How did they manage? :biker: :bike:


When something unexpected happens often they don't and become yet another statistic


Are you trying to say that knowing about counter-steering is cure to avoiding the consequences of unexpected events? More likely the cause of any ensuing accident is something else... lack of observation, anticipation, excess speed etc.

It's just a term, a buzz word, and some people feel the need to tell others about it, despite the fact they already do it. You don't have to know how something works to use it. Those that can't steer properly have a more fundamental problem. Explaining counter-steering isn't likely to get rid of those problems. An hour riding around a car park will teach anybody all they need to know about counter-steering. :headbang:

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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:06 am

Imsensible wrote:Are you trying to say that knowing about counter-steering is cure to avoiding the consequences of unexpected events? More likely the cause of any ensuing accident is something else... lack of observation, anticipation, excess speed etc.

It can make the difference between getting round the corner, or not, when the things you've mentioned have not been dealt with correctly in the first place.

MANY riders have no idea how to add extra lean into a motorcycle quickly once they've set the path round the corner. Just a little explanation and some practise pushing each bar on an empty piece of road makes huge improvements in a rider's cornering. We are not (or I'm not) talking about the full detailed explanation, just the initiation mechanics.
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Horse » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:12 am

Imsensible wrote:Are you trying to say that knowing about counter-steering is cure to avoiding the consequences of unexpected events? More likely the cause of any ensuing accident is something else... lack of observation, anticipation, excess speed etc.
It's just a term, a buzz word, and some people feel the need to tell others about it, despite the fact they already do it. You don't have to know how something works to use it. Those that can't steer properly have a more fundamental problem. Explaining counter-steering isn't likely to get rid of those problems. An hour riding around a car park will teach anybody all they need to know about counter-steering. :headbang:


1. It's not a buzz word or term, it's a description. What riders actually do is 'steer'. The addition if 'counter' highlights the counter intuitive manner in wwhich it works.
2. All riders achieve steering. However, many riders don't know how they do that. For some riders that may never be a problem.
3. Yes, you're right, it may be a 'fix' to get someone out of trouble. Perhaps you think it would be better *not* to be able to get out of trouble? In the same vein, perhaps emergency stops shouldn't be taught? AAMOI, in the DSA post-test bike video, the suggested 'solution' for running wide in a bend is 'go slower next time'. That assumes that the rider survives.
4. An hour in car park won't achieve that. Proof? Well, for starters, every CBT student does that time, but I don't expect many would identify the action of counter-steering for themselves. Also, learning from experience requires awarenes of actions and experimentation. You may have meant that, but I'd suggest that not 'anybody' can or would do that undirected.

I don't know you, your experience and background. But I really can't understand why you seem to be so rabidly against teaching conscious use of counter steering. Actually, it suggests to me that you don't understand it yourself.

As a contrast, I use to instruct with the US organisation MSF. They have what they call the four key skills for riding: starting, stopping, shufting and turning. 'Turning' means conscious use of c-s - and that's for novice riders. But different to our CBT where it's not in the syllabus.
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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:58 pm

What does the "shufting" phase consist of, please? :confused:
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Horse » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:55 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:What does the "shufting" phase consist of, please? :confused:


lt means I'm tiping on the t@blet with a stylus. Slowly. :?

Shifting (gears)
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