HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Topics relating to Advanced Driving on anything that is not a car or bike, from lorries to vans, buses to hovercrafts...
Imsensible
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Imsensible » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:31 pm

Horse wrote:I don't know you, your experience and background. But I really can't understand why you seem to be so rabidly against teaching conscious use of counter steering. Actually, it suggests to me that you don't understand it yourself.

As a contrast, I use to instruct with the US organisation MSF. They have what they call the four key skills for riding: starting, stopping, shufting and turning. 'Turning' means conscious use of c-s - and that's for novice riders. But different to our CBT where it's not in the syllabus.


Yes, we have all heard, on numerous occasions, your stories about your USA experiences, setting up this and that etc, etc. Buy you are right about several things. Cyclists and motorcyclists just steer. Watch a 4 year old ride their bike around a play area and they steer. Try to explain counter steering to them and watch the puzzled look on their faces because they don't understand you. But they still steer.

When I did my CBT, nobody had any problems steering, although one couldn't use gears properly and went on to a scooter instead. I had a love/hate relationship with the clutch lever at first. Too many years riding bicycles and driving cars.

You're right, many adults don't know how they steer, any more than they know how they balance, breathe or think. But they do all those things anyway. If they can steer, they can steer more. How many years had you been riding before you learned of it?

You're wrong. I understand counter steering perfectly adequately thanks. But I had been steering on two wheels for 30 years beforehand.

:popcorn:

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:06 pm

I'm with Horse on this. The difference understanding "how they steer a motorcycle" makes to riders is easily visible. Many do not know how they initiate a turn into a corner, which is why they don't do it with any degree of accuracy, finesse and/or speed (as in change of direction, not mph).

Put a hazard that has to be dealt with mid corner in front of them and it is painful to watch the rider change direction. They may get it done but it ain't pretty or efficient. Sadly for some riders they don't get the opportunity to say they wished they'd known HOW to steer a motorcycle. Not getting around bends features highly in single motorcycle accidents.
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gannet
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby gannet » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:11 pm

Having recently read up on this counter steering lark and started to apply it to my cycling...

I'm cornering far better than before... Doubtless I've been going round the same bends before without issue, but I can notice the difference :bike:

That in itself should demonstrate the value in learning new techniques and not just accepting the attitude of well I've always managed...

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Horse
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Horse » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:53 am

Imsensible wrote: Yes, we have all heard, on numerous occasions, your stories about . . .


'Stories'? Are you suggesting I fabricated it all? :lol:

Imsensible wrote: Watch a 4 year old ride their bike around a play area and they steer. Try to explain counter steering to them and watch the puzzled look on their faces because they don't understand you. But they still steer.


However, a typical progression is tricycle > bicycle, sometimes via bicycle with stabilisers. Both the trike and BwS direct steer. Both don't rely on movement for stability. Parents then remove the stabilisers or put the kids onto a two-wheeler, and the kids have to work it out for themselves. Someone described that as one of the worst tricks parents play on their kids.

The relatively recent (ignoring the 'hobby horse' two wheeler of antiquity) move towards giving kids 'balance bikes' is a way to overcome that challenge.

As a [related] aside:



Imsensible wrote: If they can steer, they can steer more. How many years had you been riding before you learned of it?


I moved from cars to bikes in 1976, but had many years cycling before that. However, I can remember one incident in about 1979 when I just couldn't understand 'why' I was running wide on a corner even though I was 'leaning'.

As to when I learned about it, I can't tell you exactly. Possibly Robinson's 'Passing your motorcycle test' book (on Alibris as 1982). I knew about it before reading Code's original Twist book when it came out, and I'd included it in an [refernce deleted at Im's request] I'd written by early 1988. There were lso Foale's articles in Superbike magazine.

At that point I knew about it in principle, but learned more as time went on, including [more removed to keep Im happy]. However I [removed] and also [gone].

Imsensible wrote: You're right, many adults don't know how they steer, any more than they know how they balance , breathe or think. But they do all those things anyway.


Is it possible to 'breathe' incorrectly? [And I don't mean "From the diaphragm, darling!" or anything to do with mouth-breathers]. When I was [redacted] I was accused of 'thinking too much' by someone who managed to crash in a straight line. The end of his motorcycle racing career. The other meaning of 'career' . . .

Of course, the way two wheelers 'work' is that they balance themselves - often the worst thing (for the bike) is to have a rider trying to do what they think is right, or doing what they do because of panic.



The i2i Academy work with riders to overcome their fears which lead to those panic reactions.

Imsensible wrote: But I had been steering on two wheels for 30 years beforehand.


OK, your turn. How did you learn about it (rather than just do it) and have you made a conscious effort to introduce it into your potorcycling?

Imsensible wrote: :popcorn:


It's rude to post with your mouth full, and make sure you don't choke :)
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Gareth » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:14 pm

Horse wrote:Parents then remove the stabilisers or put the kids onto a two-wheeler, and the kids have to work it out for themselves. Someone described that as one of the worst tricks parents play on their kids.

I beg to differ; I think it's when parents tell the kids they can't come in to use the toilet until they've learned how to ride ...[/quote]
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Horse
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Horse » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:28 pm

Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:Parents then remove the stabilisers or put the kids onto a two-wheeler, and the kids have to work it out for themselves. Someone described that as one of the worst tricks parents play on their kids.

I beg to differ; I think it's when parents tell the kids they can't come in to use the toilet until they've learned how to ride ...


:lol: And that's how accidents happen!

Mind you, one statistician did suggest that 95% of people are caused by accident :D
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StressedDave
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby StressedDave » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:15 pm

In my experience, most children are caused by nothing good on telly on a particular evening. There's a whole cluster of birthday parties to go to in my daughter's pre-school group every November... ;)
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Horse
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Re: HIGH STANDARD/FURTHER TRAINING IN THE UK

Postby Horse » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:40 pm

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/gyrobi ... ers/013483

Gyrobike Europe has launched its gyroscopic bicycle wheel in the UK, a substitute for stabilisers and able to be fitted to bikes hosting a 12 or 16-inch wheel.

The Jyrobike was invented by students at Dartmouth Engineering College in New Hampshire, who discovered that at 14km per hour a bike will stabilise itself using natural gyroscopic forces.

But the firm then looked at ways of simulating that high speed stability at low speeds.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/busin ... 04940.html

Jyrobike enters administration: Wheels come off cycle firm despite £120k web funding
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